Engine balancing [Merged 6-7]

[Stock90GSXT]

Okay. I need some advice. I removed the balance shafts out of my 6bolt. I have heard two different sides.

1. The engine is'nt balance w/o those, so get the Rods, Pistons, and Crank,flywheel balanced

2. The engine is already balance w/o the balance shafts, they were just there to remove vibration so customers would'nt complain.

I was thinking. If the engine was vibrating. then its not balanced. I need imput from the people who have had experiance in removing the balance shafts. Is it worth it to balance the bottom end. Or is it a waste of money?. Keep in mind. I will be changing the perimeters by installing 95+ pistons on my 1g Rods. I know anytime you change stuff like that its recommended to balance the engine.

 

[silver bullit]

What does it mean to have a flywheel "reconditioned"?

nah, but i would consider getting the flywheel reconditioned. It will increase the life of the cluthc as it has a smooth surface to contact with and wont tear it up.

He has a new flywheel not a used one.

The clutch was broken in on a different flywheel so it may need rebroken in again for a couple hundred miles but a new flywheel does not need to be machined, as it is new it does not need reconditioned (machined, turned down, etc)

 

[15 sec gs]

It means re-surfaced, you have to take it to a machine shop and they will smooth it out for you. The smoother your flywheel is the better off your clutch will be, this isnt something you can do at home/ on your own.

 

[ChiGGz]

Thanks for the answers guys!

 

[ecli1999gs-t]

I’ve done a little bit of reading on this topic and I’m still a little confused... I’m rebuilding a 16g as it had some shaft play. After the rebuild the shaft play was eliminated, however, when I tried spinning the compressor wheel to see if the turbo span freely it did about 2 rotations then stopped... is that ok because I went on youtube and I saw some peoples turbo’s spin for what seemed like forever. I didn’t balance the turbo, could that be the issue?

This leads me to my other question. I never got the turbo balanced because it was hard to find someone who will do it locally. I finally found someone today who will do it. They said that they need the turbine shaft, compressor wheel and the thrust collar in order to balance the turbo. Now I have to dis-assemble the turbo give the guy the parts for balancing then re-assemble it again. So I’m assuming that these parts are going to be independently balanced so when I assemble it all together will it be balanced or will it need another balance after assembly?

this is starting to cost alot of money...

 

[ndsti]

It costs more to rebuild a 16G than to actually buy a new one. The spin of the shaft is okay if you installed new bearings. Contact Blouch Turbo here in PA if you have anymore questions; thier website is Blouch Turbo Inc. - Turbo, turbochargers and performance turbochargers.

 

[91DSMFAN]

Im not sure if this will help or not but here is an option Turbo Balancing. You could always contact them for exact details on the process. Good luck.

 

[ecli1999gs-t]

I think I should clarify. The 16g I purchased had some shaft play so I ordered a rebuild kit from ebay which consisted of new bearings, o-rings, thrust collar... I did the rebuild myself and the shaft play was elimated. However, I never got the turbo balanced because I was under the impression that after assembly your suppose to balance the turbo. But after I called my local shop they told me that they need pieces of the turbo inorder to balance it (Im guessing so they can balance them independently). They are only going to balnce the turbo and not piece it all back together otherwise it would cost me much more, the balancing alone will be about $100. So I was wondering, after the balance it shouldnt matter how I piece the turbo back together because everyhing has been balanced, right? And I'm also hoping that after the balance my turbo will spin more then 2 rotations or do you guys think that the turbo needs to be broken in as new bearings have been installed. Thanks

Oh and 91DSMFAN, from that site Im good on all three.

 

[ndsti]

As I stated earlier contact Blouch turbo they know what they are talking about. As for your balancing i cannot answer that question but I can answer the question of breaking in the turbo; yes a turbo will be tight due to no oil lubricating the bearings and the tolerances that are used in manufacturing.

 

[livedsm4g63]

just lube it really good when you put it together

 

[TjPhillips36]

I believe MHI turbos come pre-balanced, with each individual part being balanced. The compressor wheel, exhaust wheel, etc... are all balanced separately before assembled therefore when assembled they are balanced. Did you have any damage to your blades or other parts that would throw off the balance?

 

[ecli1999gs-t]

I appreciate the quick replies guys.

Both wheels are in very good condition. On the bottom of each wheel, however, it looks like it has been professionally grinded I think thats because they were balanced when new? Anyways all i did regarding the rebuild was replace all the bearings, o-rings and thrust collar nothing else and from what I've read prior to assembly I should have all moving parts balanced. So i guess thats what I'll do considering I dont want future problems to occur.

thanks again guys

 

[smokem]

OK i remember reading on here in the past something about having to balance the Fidanza flywheel with the Act 2600 clutch before installing them? I cant seem to find that info now and all the searches i read about both no one else has mentioned doing it. Is it really necessary? The instructions with the Fidanza says "Since this is a machined aluminum flywheel it is very close to the correct balance, but you should always check the balance with your clutch pressure plate and your particular engine - especially if it is an external balance configuration." The reason I'm asking is the machine shops i called around me sound like this was new to them and the shop i have to drop them off at is 40 miles away and i have to pick it up the next day most likely so that would be 160 mile total about $50 in fuel in my truck. Not that it would be a problem to do just wanna know if is recommended for our cars I'm looking at a FP18G and 300+hp here before summers over if that matters. Thanks in Advance, also would they need the clutch disk too or just the PP and flywheel?

 

[smokem]

Thanks for you opinion Gutsi, However i think I'm still gonna go with the fidanza for now. Can you point out were people don't recommend them for AWD's cause that's a first to me. If i have and issues ill just throw the Fidanza out an get an Act id rather lose some cash than pass on a potential problem. That being said. I swear ive read a lot of the Fidanza threads and most seem to recommend them, that coming from people running them, when most the people that come along and bash them never state having first hand experience with them. Most of the problems people had seems they were in the past. I even think someone on here stated that Fidanza made changes to the flywheel in the past(true or not ? I don't know). From what Ive read I'm really not to concerned, worse case i drop the tranny twice right? I really don't see catastrophic failure happening, Also the fidanza flywheel has been around for a while and the amount of complaints Ive read on them don't seem high compared number of people using them. If Fidanza=failure then i guess some could argue DSM=failure right? Can't really judge the whole based on a few right?
There enough treads about Act vs Fidanza. So I'm not trying to start a new one. Also if i bought an Act from the get go it would be on now.

I more less wanna know if the others running them had them balanced?
I wounder if those that have had vibration isuses had it done or not?
Also to ease the minds of others that might read this, can people that are running the Fidanza FW state how long you've had them on? Also please only state problems if you had them! No here-say please!

 

[GUTSI]

Your right, its only best to offer an opinion if you can do it first hand. My opinion was 'second hand'
Im not trying to bash fidanza (i was actually considering them myself last year), But if it helps, last year March, my buddy put one on his 98 tsi AWD. He didnt have it balanced prior to install, and there was absolutey no vibrations or anything like that. His only beef (at the time) was having to rev higher to get into first.

Around the same time last year, i also did a clutch job (with the act flywheel), and I didnt check either whether or not the flywheel was properly stepped to within oem tolerances. I just assumed that it would be, and installed it straight.
So, we took a gamble on manufacturers specs....and won.
I guess its one of those things where you rely that the manufacturer wont ship out a 'bad apple', and thats probably why fidanza "recommends" that you double check before installing. Who knows, it may very well be ready to just throw on, im not sure, but he didnt have his balanced prior to, and had no vibrations, shakes or any weird noises from the tranny...

...but it did fail on him. He ended up replacing it just recently. Now the shops' argument is that it warped due to excessive heat. You tend to slip an awd car coming out the hole, especially when you make lots of torque. He makes 316 (wheels). That, coupled with the slip style launches, led to the flywheels demise. Its a subjective argument, ### im sure there's guys on here that have launched hard, with slippage, on the same flywheel, and have no problems.
Now, we both make very similar power levels, and we launch our cars the same way (2 step launch control, 5500 rpm, sometimes leaving the hole with excess of 18 psi of boost!!) So you can imagine what the clutch is going through for those few seconds. Mind you, my flywheel held up, HOWEVER, my ACT performance street disk did not. It actually glazed, couldnt handle any type of slipping, in my opinion, it was a waste of money, ### although it works fine during dd, at the track it really hurts my numbers, and just cant hold up to that abuse! Now Im in limbo, ### its a shame having to replace a disk that works absolutely fine on the street, but not at the track

Anyway, there's my act bash!

 

[Defiant]

The noobs go wild.
Flywheels and pressure plates are balanced from the factory. Putting two balanced parts together won't upset anything. Balancing them together without being connected to the crankshaft is fairly pointless.

 

[cheap90gsx]

after reading for what seems like hours i have not been able to answer the question of needing to have all my stock internals balanced. so after 200 K miles i decided to do a rebuild. first i read balancing is a must, then i read that they are already balanced and it's not needed. my question is what is the truth behind all of this? i'm not looking for major power and i'm using all the stock internals. on all the other threads everyone seems to argue whether it's important or not. please someone enlighten me, is there a for sure answer to this. sorry if this is a newb question but i'm on a very limited budget. thanks.

 

[thewombis]

Doing a stock rebuild? after 200k miles? In my opinion there are 2 options which may be nice, cheap, worthwhile.

1) Tear it apart, and build it with forged internals if you plan on making more power down the road. - more expensive, but worth it.

2) Determine the cost of having your 200k block rebuilt, and put it up against finding a running long block with lower miles.

There is no problem with rebuilding with stock parts, but if you can get away with slapping in forged internals for only a few hundred more, than you might as well.
(assuming the rebuild already consists of machine work which will be hundreds weather you put stock or forged)

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

I would rebalance no matter what. I always have. Even on stock rebuilds for other people. If you are tearing a motor down and rebuilding it in any ways I would recommend it. Even changing a clutch can change engine harmonics. The first time I took mine to get done I just took the crank and they said they need more than that. They balance the crank with the pulley's on the end of it and with the flywheel and pressure plate bolted to it. You would be surprised how out of balance they can be. If will help improve the longevity of the motor and on a built motor it should never be a question.

 

[cheap90gsx]

to the first reply, ive already started towards the stock rebuild and i really do not have much money at all. how much does this usually cost?

 

[Winglessflight]

For a stock rebuild, balancing isn't necessary, given you operate the engine within OEM parameters... Even when i fully built my engine, i took my internals to a reputable guy that built race engines for a living for balancing, and he told me, first hand, that the design of our engine was self balancing. He did do some slight balancing on my crank just because of the high performance goals, but said it probably wasn't necessary because the weights were already so close. So for your purposes, i wouldn't worry about it *provided your tolerances are all within specs*.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

Having worked in a machine shop before I can tell you NO rotating assembly is self balancing. When you balance a rotating ASSEMBLY, not crankshaft, you are balancing it to tolerance's that are within grams. Yes the crank is still probably balanced from Mitsubishi but if you decide to put in a new clutch with your assembly and machine the flywheel then the balance of the whole assembly is thrown off. Tolerances being within spec has nothing to do with whether or not he needs to balance his assembly or not. For a stock rebuild motor though it more times than no isn't needed. Here is some information to help the O.P.
Balancing the Rotating Assembly

to the first reply, ive already started towards the stock rebuild and i really do not have much money at all. how much does this usually cost?

We would do this anywhere from $40 for smaller motors up to $110 for some of the BBC assembly's.

 

[Winglessflight]

I realize that all rotating parts are matched within .001 grams in many cases and that no engine is completely balanced stock. I actually meant crank instead of engine, so that's my bad. I was just addressing his particular scenario, having only to do with OEM specs. I've taken engine building classes and worked in a machine shop myself, and if he was doing anything other than a stock build, i would have recommended he do it.

 

[aspekt9]

Having worked in a machine shop before I can tell you NO rotating assembly is self balancing. When you balance a rotating ASSEMBLY, not crankshaft, you are balancing it to tolerance's that are within grams. Yes the crank is still probably balanced from Mitsubishi but if you decide to put in a new clutch with your assembly and machine the flywheel then the balance of the whole assembly is thrown off. Tolerances being within spec has nothing to do with whether or not he needs to balance his assembly or not. For a stock rebuild motor though it more times than no isn't needed. Here is some information to help the O.P.
Balancing the Rotating Assembly



We would do this anywhere from $40 for smaller motors up to $110 for some of the BBC assembly's.

And so anytime the clutch or flywheel are changed the whole rotating assembly should be rebalanced, is this correct?