E85 Starting problems

[rbrandona]

I have searched and searched and had no luck so now im making a thread. I have a 91 gsx, stock bottom end and head, afpr, FIC1250cc injectors, b16g, speed density, E85 tuned on jackal. The tune is perfect, no issues there, but for some reason it takes FOREVER to start. Literally an hour of cranking without ether to get it to fire. I have to use starting fluid and eventually it will run and idle on its own. Im sick of it and have no idea whats going on. None of my friends cars that are on e85 do this so I have no clue where to start, any help would be AMAZING!

thanks, Brandon

 

[Phantom DSM]

Are you on a stock fuel pressure regulator ? Does it only do this on cold, hot, or always?

 

[bastarddsm]

Does it crank fast? I've never had starting troubles on E85 , unless its really cold. But that's from 20w50 oil. I suspect your. Ve map is ####ed at low rpm/vac

 

[rbrandona]

Aeromotive A1000, and only on a DEAD cold start. starts perfect when its warmed up, and in the summer weather, but when its cold the battery will die from how much cranking it takes. I hook it up to my girlfriends car with jumper cables for a good 30-45mins before it fires.

 

[bastarddsm]

My car also never ran good on jackal.

Here's what I would do. Drastically lean it out by setting your global injector to much bigger injectors than you have , and try and start it. If it fires right off you need to lean out cold start. If it doesn't, go the other way, and fatten it up.

 

[rbrandona]

It runs perfect on jackal just starts like shit, but 2 friends on the exact same setup dont have these issues!

I really want to solve this! I want to drive my car and dont know what this is. I wish someone has already went through this!

 

[crash89]

My situation is a little different but I have some trouble with dead cold starts on e85. Theres been a few times where I just added a little bit of fuel to the cells being used during cold start and bam, fires right up. However that is on V3. I only personally know one guy running Jackal, but his car fires almost as quick as a stock car. Its ridiculous. Mine will turn, turn, turn blump blump blum.. then do that for about 4 or 5 more times before itll actually fire.

Sorry for lack of real info I guess. My only suggestion would be to try and add some fuel. I cant really say where since I have no idea how to navigate with Jackal. Also, do the 1g's have a coolant temp sensor like the 2g's? If so I would look into replacing that!

 

[Kapok6]

My buddy who is on e85 has a block heater like what you find on diesels. Uses it when it's really cold out. I think he pulled it from a junkyard. Not saying you should do this...just tossing it out there.

 

[DogWhistle]

Can you verify fuel pressure while cranking? There is a wire lead to the ecu that fires the fuel pump while cranking. Had a similar problem on our Talon last year when we switched to E85, and turned out to be that wire was bad .

 

[Mark4g63t]

Im noticing a huge difference on Dead cold start ups. Mine will crank crank crank and usually start on the 3rd try. I set my wideband up so that it didn't have a delay when it turned on and would immediately start reading AFR's. I noticed that i'm pretty rich when cranking and for the first 30 seconds or so of the car running. I would recommend either leaning it out some or richening it up some depending on whatever works for you. Give both a try.

 

[bastarddsm]

Also, do the 1g's have a coolant temp sensor like the 2g's? If so I would look into replacing that!

That's a good point, check the temp sensor. These cars will not start if it is faulty

 

[rbrandona]

The temp sensor to the ecu and the gauge both work, then engine fan one i broke on accident, but that shouldnt affect any of this!

 

[TaLN91tsI]

Check fuel pressure after letting set over night. Should loose less than 10% ie: if pressure was 25psi then cannot be less then 22.5psi. If lower, check for leaking injector or bad fuel pump internal check valve. Thi is very important since a leaking injector will always leave you in a flooded condition after overnight parking.

 

[T is for TURBO]

Check fuel pressure after letting set over night. Should loose less than 10% ie: if pressure was 25psi then cannot be less then 22.5psi. If lower, check for leaking injector or bad fuel pump internal check valve. Thi is very important since a leaking injector will always leave you in a flooded condition after overnight parking.

Aftermarket fuel pressure regulators don't hold pressure very long like stock ones. Mine will easily leak to zero over night. But I highly doubt this is his problem. Building enough pressure to start the car only takes a couple of cranks.

 

[danl]

I have searched and searched and had no luck so now im making a thread. I have a 91 gsx, stock bottom end and head, afpr, FIC1250cc injectors, b16g, speed density, E85 tuned on jackal. The tune is perfect, no issues there, but for some reason it takes FOREVER to start. Literally an hour of cranking without ether to get it to fire. I have to use starting fluid and eventually it will run and idle on its own. Im sick of it and have no idea whats going on. None of my friends cars that are on e85 do this so I have no clue where to start, any help would be AMAZING!

thanks, Brandon

Two problems I can see here. Stock engine which means stock compression. Also the FIC 1250's.

1. The stock compression won't do you any favors. I always put my stock engine'd 1g on gas before thanksgiving. They just WON'T fire well when cold. I know all the tricks, it just isn't going to happen, sorry. A stock evolution has a better chance, I've fired them down to about 20 deg F on motorcycle batteries.

2. Those injectors are junk for low IPW operation, again, won't give you the control you need to meter the fuel for starting. It will either be lean (no fuel) or rich (just dumping fuel).

Put the car back on gas or at least go to a 50/50 mix. I know those 1250's won't idle for shit on gas, but at least it should start. If you are hell bent on running E85 in the cold, you will be adding 3-4x the stock IPW on the cold startup maps at 20-30 deg F. 4-5 times more fuel below that. Its a fine line between washing the plugs out and getting it enough fuel to fire. You will also have to run stock heat range plugs or 1 NGK (which is half a heat range) hotter. Then when it warms up put the plugs in for performance driving...

Check fuel pressure after letting set over night. Should loose less than 10% ie: if pressure was 25psi then cannot be less then 22.5psi. If lower, check for leaking injector or bad fuel pump internal check valve. Thi is very important since a leaking injector will always leave you in a flooded condition after overnight parking.

Not the problem. If you really wanted to test it you can prime the fuel system to get it up to pressure. However I have yet to have a car, even a new one hold 10% from night to morning. Not sure where you are getting those numbers from, that is an impossible task.

That's a good point, check the temp sensor. These cars will not start if it is faulty

They also won't run. He complained of hard starting but eventually it started (with ether it started better). Do the math, E85+it just recently got colder out. Hummmmmmmmm

 

[bastarddsm]

They also won't run. He complained of hard starting but eventually it started (with ether it started better). Do the math, E85+it just recently got colder out. Hummmmmmmmm

No they will run. I don't buy the low compression either. Mines 8 to 1, and uses a lawnmower battery. I have not touched the cold start maps, and I run cold plugs on stock ignition gaped way down. My car starts just fine. I also have 1800cc worth of injector.

 

[danl]

No they will run. I don't buy the low compression either. Mines 8 to 1, and uses a lawnmower battery. I have not touched the cold start maps, and I run cold plugs on stock ignition gaped way down. My car starts just fine. I also have 1800cc worth of injector.

I understand.

However I've had personal experience getting 5 engines to start below freezing consistently on E85. Could it be something else besides the compression? Perhaps, but it doesn't follow my experience. It seems to me that, building heat, during cranking (with higher compression), is important.

Also, with regards to you starting on stock IPW maps. The honda guys and the evolution guys both think that you need more fuel. Both agreeing with the amounts I stated above:

Having trouble starting on E85 in cold weather? Read here... - K20A.org .:. The K Series Source . Honda / Acura K20a k24a Engine Forum
E85 cold start tips and tricks - evolutionm.net

You may be getting lucky, your 1800's may not be capable of sub 1MS pulse width, thus they meter fuel like a fire hose on/off, which is sufficient fuel to light it off.

 

[bastarddsm]

Yeah, I don't know. Certainly more compression would help, but 1 point isnt a deal breaker. Anyway on my car I have been running E85 since 07, back in the beginning I 450's a 255hp and a B&M fpr deally at 60psi. Then I got FIC750's tunerpro and an ostrich, then I went to staged injection with 450's and 750's now I run 750's and 950's on NT regulators. Never had starting issue. I don't even know where to adjust cold start stuff. Never bothered to learn it.


I need to read the 1g dissasembly and see how starting works, but I still feel like the VE map is boned.

 

[danl]

The 1g stuff is very similar to the evolution stuff. You can look at the evolution disassembly and get a good idea of what the DSM is doing. We did it the other way around when trying to figure out what the evolution ecu was doing bask when more was known about the DSM ecu.

In a nutshell ecu looks up coolant temp and waits for the starter input. When it sees the starter input it fires the injectors depending on CAS position. The IPW is a coolant temp vs IPW 2d table, ecu applies injector scaling, and slowly pulls away IPW the longer you crank with another table. The ecu won't look at the MAF until over ~500rpm. That is why you can unplug the MAF and it will fire then stall.

I honestly don't know how your car is starting fine on stock startup maps considering you've tried that many different injectors. What is the coldest you've started it? Can you post a video logging coolant temp and IPW while you fire it up? Just curious as mine will not start below 45F on stock IPW startup maps. It would be interesting to see what IPW the 1g ecu is throwing at the injectors for startup.

 

[bastarddsm]

It's not very cold here, but it should be like 30 tonight I'll see what I can do.

The OP is running Jackal, and who knows what they are doing. I've found timing errors in to code, so it wouldn't suprise me if they have problems with other areas to.

 

[ErikTande]

OP, replace your coolant temp sensor. Just try it. It's inexpensive and easy to do. I had the EXACT same problem of starting fine when it was warm and starting fine in the summer, but not when it was cold. After my sensor was replaced however, it fires right up, even in below freezing temps.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/421489-cut-coolant-temp-connector.html#post153165427

 

[danl]

OP, replace your coolant temp sensor. Just try it. It's inexpensive and easy to do. I had the EXACT same problem of starting fine when it was warm and starting fine in the summer, but not when it was cold. After my sensor was replaced however, it fires right up, even in below freezing temps.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/421489-cut-coolant-temp-connector.html#post153165427

Very common problem with the connector. Just crimp two spades to the wires and call it done.

Bastardsm, its possible the 1g ecu just throws fuel at the damm thing with no care for emissions. That is why a log + video so I can hear/see the response of the start would help. The evolution ecu that I run obviously cares a LOT about emissions and gives it JUST enough fuel to fire up and not an ounce more.

I routinely have to start my car sub 20F. We had a cold spell coming into town and I threw my hands up and put 93 octane in it with some 6ES plugs, but it fired at 9 deg F that AM, first crank, PC680 from 2004, sat with headlights on twice since I've owned it.

 

[bastarddsm]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcUyC-C_rC8]91 talon cold start. E85. - YouTube[/ame]

Bout a month ago, an 28*.

Ok went out and logged it. Car has been sitting since lunchtime. 33* outside. First is starting it. Then I unplugged the injectors, and let it crank for a while. It seems that the pulsewidth rises as you crank, capping out at about 35ms. It cranks at about 125 - 150rpm You can see the pulse width rises to 12.5ms, when the engine finally starts. It was logging at about 4hz, and cranks for less than 1s. Also car has 750+450 for the winter.