E85 on 550's?

[evileclipse909]

Has anyone used E85 with only 550cc injectors? I did the math and as far as I can see it should be possible. From what I understand is that you need 20% more fuel than gassoline to run it. And acording to my math, if you take stock injectors (450cc) and you multiply it by 125% you get 540. So I would think that 550s would work. Am I wrong? ### if Im not I'll be switching very soon. FYI, the setup that I want to try it on consists of stock tank and lines, walbro 255 pump afpr, 550cc injectors, maft, and safc2.

 

[droppinbottom]

What kind of power are you trying to reach? Stock?

I would not do it to my car on 550's

 

[matthewdesigns]

I did the math once, and I think I remember 550's supporting about 12psi boost with a rewired 190. Don't do it. I just upgraded, and went from 550's to 950's in order to run e85.

 

[evileclipse909]

Well in that case, has anyone ever tried tuning 1050cc injectors with maft and afc2? Also what kind of harmfull sideaffects can hapento the stock metel tank and stock fuel lines?

 

[slow_tsi]

ok first of all e 85 while it will not hurt your car now. alcohol is corrosive to many components in your car. so unless you convert your car to run e 85 it will slowly eat away at your car. second alcohol has half the b.t.u. rating as gas, so it takes twice as much alcohol to make as much power as gas. my source on these statements are my text books from class in wyotechs automotive core ,chassis fabrication and high performance engine classes. so while it may be a higher octane you are hurting yourself in the long run..."in my opinion stay away from it." hope that helps in some way

 

[deflator]

The post before mine is inaccurate. Any car made after 89 can run straight E85 without harm. Your 2G already has a plastic fuel tank, so no problem there. Its not like running straight methanol, you only need roughly 20% more fuel, but plan on 880cc injectors and rewired 255hp pump with pressure regulator minimum for 20+psi

 

[rarson]

It's not just the fuel tank, but the lines and injectors and any rubber parts within the fuel system, too.

From what I can tell, most people I've heard running E85 are doing so without any major changes. So I'm assuming it would be okay. However, alcohol IS corrosive and E85 is a big step up from E10, so I'd be cautious.

That said, I don't think you're going to be able to get a decent tune with 1050's with a MAFT and AFC. It would be a real hack job if it even worked at all.

E85 is mostly a benefit due to the increased knock resistance of the fuel. Big pump numbers are pretty easy because of its octane rating. But your fuel requirement calculations seem a bit low. Most guys are running at least 1150's, or even 1600's, sometimes even two sets. But then again, these aren't on stock turbos. I can't recall how much those guys recommend upgrading when switching to E85, but it's a lot more than 20%. More like 60%.

 

[Tsi_User]

ok first of all e 85 while it will not hurt your car now. alcohol is corrosive to many components in your car. so unless you convert your car to run e 85 it will slowly eat away at your car. second alcohol has half the b.t.u. rating as gas, so it takes twice as much alcohol to make as much power as gas. my source on these statements are my text books from class in wyotechs automotive core ,chassis fabrication and high performance engine classes. so while it may be a higher octane you are hurting yourself in the long run..."in my opinion stay away from it." hope that helps in some way

The only things he should really worry about are injectors, a fuel pump and the proper tuning software. You are looking at running more fuel, and 550s will not cut it. If you go bigger injectors than 660s you're going to want somehting other than an AFC to tune with.

It does not take twice as much gas..

 

[slow_tsi]

rarson is correct and like i said it wont harm immediatley but over time it can cause damage to seals and other components as for calculations i dont know i only stated the btu fact give me a number your shooting for and i can ask my instructor

 

[snooopy365]

I`m running 450s with higher fuel pressure and S-AFC.
In my point of view you should be able to run 550 injectors and just ~10PSI without any big problem.

my setup right now is:
Big 16G, ~52psi fuelpressure, Evo7 fuelpump, 450 injectors.

car is running great with ~7PSI boost ... its also "able" to make some power with 10PSI boost but its running out of fuel @5200rpm and starting knock at 6000rpm

E85 is very smooth, its running lean as sh..t before starting to knock (stock o2 is like .8V until 5k than .72V and .5V @ 6.5k)

anyway beware of running lean (just did a quick test) but stock boost should work with the 550 injectors, but better get an logger first.

 

[evileclipse909]

Well right now I'm running a To4E pushing 20lbs. I was wanting to do the E85 swap so that it would be a little safer to run high boost levals with the car. My only problem is the 550's. People around here have been teling me that you can tune 1000cc injectors with the Maf Translator and SAFC2 no problem. I just wanted to get some further input before I go out and just order new injectors. BTW, I'm trying to put out around 400 to 450hp and get into the 12's at least this summer.

 

[matthewdesigns]

You should be able to get the 1050's/maft/safc combo to work with e85. A friend of mine has this setup on e85 and does well with it. I don't know off hand what his corrections are, though. He's not having any bothersome timing issues, either.

If you are going to try anything with e85, you really need to get a wideband o2 sensor. My logged narrow-band numbers have never been close to right, so I don't trust them. I borrowed a WB after my recent pump/injector install to see where things were. I had it tuned for no knock on e85, and was still dangerously lean after checking with the WB.

If you swap in 550's, you'll be running no more than stock psi on e85, and won't really be making any more power, because you don't have any control over timing. Do the fuel pump/afpr upgrades, and run a little more boost on pump gas/higher fuel pressure until you can get bigger injectors and some control for them. Or give the maft a shot in the mean time.

 

[evileclipse909]

Also. FYI, the gs-t and other 2wd cars have metal gas tanks. I know there are no corrosion issues with the awd plastic tanks but I was wandering if anyone is running E85 with a metal tank.

 

[evileclipse909]

I'm already running a re-wired 255 and an areomotive afpr. And whenever I'm under full boost my wideband reads around 10.7/1. And I dont understand ### I've got the 57 trim pushing like 20psi.

 

[JeffGST]

rarson is correct and like i said it wont harm immediatley but over time it can cause damage to seals and other components as for calculations i dont know i only stated the btu fact give me a number your shooting for and i can ask my instructor

How much time did the classroom tell you that you will begin to see problems? I'm going on 3 years now on 3 different DSM's with ZERO problems of corrosion. This is real world experience here. Most DSM's don't even last 3 years after modifying them anyways. All 3 of these DSM's are 1G's, so they all have metal tanks in them.

Don't tell people to stay away from Ethanol unless you personally have had major problems with it in the past. Ethanol is the best thing to hit the performance market since the turbocharger.

To the OP, 550cc will be perfect on a stock vehicle with no engine management. The increased injector flow will compensate for the difference in Ethanol Stoich. It will be a very easy way to convert a DSM to Ethanol with a TINY investment. The downside is that the car will not be a "Flex Fuel Car" but only an Ethanol car. You will not be able to reuse gasoline without running the car very rich.

 

[JeffGST]

I'm already running a re-wired 255 and an areomotive afpr. And whenever I'm under full boost my wideband reads around 10.7/1. And I dont understand ### I've got the 57 trim pushing like 20psi.

The wideband will always assume that there is Gasoline in the tank, therefore it will give you gasoline AFR's and not Ethanol AFR's.

So 10.7 to 1 when using E85 is actually around 7.8 AFR. When the wideband shows 14.7 to 1, you are really at 9.7 to 1 on E85.

 

[SethA]

To the OP, 550cc will be perfect on a stock vehicle with no engine management. The increased injector flow will compensate for the difference in Ethanol Stoich. It will be a very easy way to convert a DSM to Ethanol with a TINY investment. The downside is that the car will not be a "Flex Fuel Car" but only an Ethanol car. You will not be able to reuse gasoline without running the car very rich.

You should be able to get the 1050's/maft/safc combo to work with e85.

Puting these two together. Running big injectors with a piggyback might work for E85 but you will not be able to easily run gas again without switching injectors.

Seth

 

[Gordian79]

sucks that we dont have e85 in my area.

 

[evileclipse909]

Thanx for all the replies. And I'm reading 10.7/1 on gas with high boost. and my afr's are still rich with the high boost levels. And when I turn the boost up the afr's just stay the same. I'm even reading rich when I hit fuel cut. Does anyone have any insite on this?

 

[matthewdesigns]

I'm already running a re-wired 255 and an areomotive afpr. And whenever I'm under full boost my wideband reads around 10.7/1. And I dont understand ### I've got the 57 trim pushing like 20psi.

Thanx for all the replies. And I'm reading 10.7/1 on gas with high boost. and my afr's are still rich with the high boost levels. And when I turn the boost up the afr's just stay the same. I'm even reading rich when I hit fuel cut. Does anyone have any insite on this?

Something is not adding up here. Do you still have the 510cc injectors listed in your profile, or have you dropped in larger ones? When was the last time you boost leak tested? A 57 trim at 20psi on 510's should be lean as hell, not rich. I maxed out my 550's on an Evo3 at 20psi. Sounds like you are leaking a lot of air, and running too rich because of it.

Edit: Just realized we're in the same city. Shoot me a PM if you can't get this figured out.

 

[snooopy365]

Also. FYI, the gs-t and other 2wd cars have metal gas tanks. I know there are no corrosion issues with the awd plastic tanks but I was wandering if anyone is running E85 with a metal tank.

me, but just about 1000meiles yet.

 

[evileclipse909]

Yea I have upgraded from the 510cc's to 550cc's. Thanx for bringing that up. I need to update my profile. Do you ever go downto the grocery wearhouse?

 

[matthewdesigns]

Rarely go out there. Maybe once every couple of months.

You definitely need to boost leak test. You ought to be going leaner than that on the 550's, too. And if you are actually hitting fuel cut, that's the most common symptom of a leak.

 

[droppinbottom]

You should be able to get the 1050's/maft/safc combo to work with e85. A friend of mine has this setup on e85 and does well with it. I don't know off hand what his corrections are, though. He's not having any bothersome timing issues, either.

If you are going to try anything with e85, you really need to get a wideband o2 sensor. My logged narrow-band numbers have never been close to right, so I don't trust them. I borrowed a WB after my recent pump/injector install to see where things were. I had it tuned for no knock on e85, and was still dangerously lean after checking with the WB.

If you swap in 550's, you'll be running no more than stock psi on e85, and won't really be making any more power, because you don't have any control over timing. Do the fuel pump/afpr upgrades, and run a little more boost on pump gas/higher fuel pressure until you can get bigger injectors and some control for them. Or give the maft a shot in the mean time.

My question to this is what is he using to monitor his timing?

 

[matthewdesigns]

My question to this is what is he using to monitor his timing?

The OP, or my friend with the maft? My friend logs, OP ?? I assumed that he'd have a logger if he's got all these other goodies. Hopefully he does.