550's on a evo III 16g

[DSM-Talon-John]

I was originally planning on getting 650's and a evo316g plus a 190 pump, but since im getting a safc2 i heard its almost impossible to get a good tune and since im a noob i dont know if thats what i should do, so I wanted to know will 550's on 92octane(thats all i caan get) come close to maxing out that turbo? How much psi can you push on this turbo? and how much with 550's? Also how hard will it be for me to tune on 550's or 650's? I have a logger so is that all ill need to tune with the safc?

 

[sheldon]

you can get about 23 or 24 psi out of that turbo to hold till redline with supporting mods...650's would be the way to go...not that harder to tune...deffinately get a wideband for an accurate afr...also its better to have the 650's so your not close to duty cycle on the 550's..a logger and safc is must.

 

[DSM-Talon-John]

what is a wideband?

 

[Boosted92]

i ran 17 PSI on my FIC 550s and evo3. Had stock fuel pump, and absolutely no knock. Didnt have a chance to put my walbro 255 in because my talon got totalled.

 

[spyderturbo007]

650's are definately the way to go. 550's are relatively easy to max out with the 16g.

what is a wideband?

A wideband O2, or more commonly referred to as a WBO2, is an O2 sensor with a larger voltage range. O2 sensors are what your ECU uses to calculate fuel delivery. The stock O2 sensor, the one in the front, sends a voltage back to the ECU based on the amount of oxygen left in the exhaust gasses. The ECU then uses this information to determine if it needs to inject more or less fuel to maintain an AFR of as close to 14.7:1 as possible. Basically telling the ECU if the last combustion cycle was rich or lean.

At cruise and light throttle, the most fuel efficient AFR is 14.7:1, but at WOT, DSM's seem to like an AFR around 11:1. Running an AFR of 11:1 at WOT helps to keep knock to a minimum, whereas an AFR of 14.7:1 at WOT would melt things.

Anyway, the stock sensor is a narrowband sensor, with a voltage output range of 0 - 1V. It isn't very accurate at providing a precise AFR. A WBO2 has a voltage output of 0-5V, so it has a much higher resolution than the stock sensor. Using this increased resolution, you are provided with a much more accurate and precise measurement of AFR.

Basically, in a nutshell, it is a tuning device that allows you to dial in an appropriate AFR.

 

[DSM-Talon-John]

I see, is it used to tune or just a replacement to tune better with the safc2? Where could I find one and is installation hard?

 

[Smokin80]

I see, is it used to tune or just a replacement to tune better with the safc2? Where could I find one and is installation hard?

You are in the states so i dont know the names of places you could find one but im sure any autoparts store or performance shop can get one for you. Probably in the 200-300USD range. I paid 300canadian for my AEM wideband. As far as installation goes...you need to go to a muffler shop and have them weld in an extra O2 sensor bung(10 bucks) and run the wires back to the interior of the car and give the gauge a positive power supply and a ground. Not very hard at all. Easier than wiring up a cd player. Youll probably want to get a a pillar gauge pod or an intrument cluster pod so you have somewhere to mount it. This is not the cheapest mod out there but it is VERY important if you want to tune well and with a margin of safety.

Smokin

 

[DSMunknown]

what is a wideband?

I see that spyderturbo007 has helped you out some, but here are some links to purchase one:


http://www.extremepsi.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=17967&cat=746&page=1
http://www.extremepsi.com/store/customer/home.php?cat=699


I would recommend the AEM Universal Exhaust Gas Oxygen sensor (aka UEGO). Others have tried different widebands and have had success. You choose which one fits your liking.

 

[sheldon]

650's are definately the way to go. 550's are relatively easy to max out with the 16g.



A wideband O2, or more commonly referred to as a WBO2, is an O2 sensor with a larger voltage range. O2 sensors are what your ECU uses to calculate fuel delivery. The stock O2 sensor, the one in the front, sends a voltage back to the ECU based on the amount of oxygen left in the exhaust gasses. The ECU then uses this information to determine if it needs to inject more or less fuel to maintain an AFR of as close to 14.7:1 as possible. Basically telling the ECU if the last combustion cycle was rich or lean.

At cruise and light throttle, the most fuel efficient AFR is 14.7:1, but at WOT, DSM's seem to like an AFR around 11:1. Running an AFR of 11:1 at WOT helps to keep knock to a minimum, whereas an AFR of 14.7:1 at WOT would melt things.

Anyway, the stock sensor is a narrowband sensor, with a voltage output range of 0 - 1V. It isn't very accurate at providing a precise AFR. A WBO2 has a voltage output of 0-5V, so it has a much higher resolution than the stock sensor. Using this increased resolution, you are provided with a much more accurate and precise measurement of AFR.

Basically, in a nutshell, it is a tuning device that allows you to dial in an appropriate AFR.

Very good info, but...... 11.1 afr shouldnt yeild knock at all...and you should be able to go 11.6 or 11.7 with no knock.

 

[Boosted92]

I've heard that 10.5 is great for DSM's when it comes to AF/R. Or am i thinking of something else?

 

[GVR4592]

Very good info, but...... 11.1 afr shouldnt yeild knock at all...and you should be able to go 11.6 or 11.7 with no knock.

I've heard that 10.5 is great for DSM's when it comes to AF/R. Or am i thinking of something else?

You both seem to be guessing. Have either one of you ever tuned a car with a wideband and some sort of knock detection system?

 

[Smokin80]

You both seem to be guessing. Have either one of you ever tuned a car with a wideband and some sort of knock detection system?

agreed...11.6-11.7 on pump gas....it could be done but i know before i got water injection I couldnt run any more that 11to1 on 94 octane pump or i had to pull timing back into the 10 degree range. 10.5 is a good number to start with and add timing untill it just picks up a hint of knock and then back it off. Then take away fuel....every car is different. There is no way anyone can know what one car or the next is going to like for AFR. WAAAYY too many variables. Stating that youve heard 11.6-11.7 is a good number for dsms might be true for one particular car but even a similarly built motor could be quite different. Im not trying to start a fight so sorry if it seems that way. I just dont want someone seeing this and pulling fuel into the high 11's and wrecking something.

Just be careful when playing with AFR's. Things can go bad very quickly if your tune is on the hairy edge.

My friends and i have built a few stock block honda D15's that made around 275whp...12 to 1 afr and as much timing as possible with as much boost as possible....we did this cause it is a 100dollar block and learning the "hard way" is the best way to learn. This setup made for a killer fast car but as you probably guessed we blew it up in a matter of minutes...the same setup at 11 to 1 and conservative boost and timing still made 250ish whp and lasted for several months before the power snapped every rod the engine had like a twig...fun as hell tho.

Have fun guys
Smokin

 

[droppinbottom]

I see, is it used to tune or just a replacement to tune better with the safc2? Where could I find one and is installation hard?

www.englishracing.net He is out of the camas washington area and sells the plx wideband units.

www.horsepowerfreaks.com They are located out of portland and have about anything you want. I personally purchased my lm-1 wideband from them and like it.

If you are considering a wideband and are using a pocketlogger to tune with I would highly suggest a wideband setup that has logging abilities so that you can just make your wot pulls and then go back and look at your run on a laptop or desktop cpu.

 

[DSMunknown]

550's on a evo III 16g

Refering to your thread title question, check out these two posts below:



http://dsmtuners.com/forums/showpost.php?p=50465986&postcount=34
http://dsmtuners.com/forums/showpost.php?p=50465991&postcount=35

 

[Splitpi]

At 43.5 psi at the fuel rail and ~86% duty cycle, 550 cc injectors will support up to ~400 hp which is roughly equivalent to max output of the EVO 16G. Long story short the 550 cc injectors will be adequate for your needs....

Edit: It all depends though on BSFC fuel consumption rate... I used .45 if .60 then you would need to get to get 750 cc's to reach 400 hp.

 

[DSM-Talon-John]

is the wideband a must for tuning or can i do it without, any of you not use it? Do you really need to go to an exhuast shop to get that done, why cant you just replace the original one and put the better one in its place?

 

[Splitpi]

is the wideband a must for tuning or can i do it without, any of you not use it? Do you really need to go to an exhuast shop to get that done, why cant you just replace the original one and put the better one in its place?

Yes you can do with out it, however you won't be able to fully tune as close to the line as you would be able to without one. In otherwords, you won't get as much out of your car without knowing a more accurate A/F ratio. Stock Narrow Band O2's really only indicate lean/rich condition not the shades inbetween.

If you have access to a welder or know someone who does you can install the O2 sensor your self. Just cut a small hole the size of the bung, weld the bung to the exhuast screw in the WB sensor. Route cable to guage/control unit. Done. You cannot just replace another O2 for a WB for several reasons.... 1) each WB O2 manufactorer has a desired distance from the exhaust that they want it placed at, and its not the same as stock O2 sensors. 2) your stock ECU expects an narrow band O2 signal and could cause it to function improperly... you would need to get an O2 eliminator chip or circuit for it to fool the ECU.

Also you will need a logger if go the AFC route to record and montor your car, RPM, Timing, O2, etc... Or just spend 150 more and get DSMLink or other comperable product that incorporates a logger along with AFC functionality and ECU overriding.