e85 fuel setup if im gonna be running 500hp evnentually

[95GSXbigturbo]

if i plan on running 500hp eventually is it okay to put a e85 fuel setup with 1100cc injectors in my 95 gsx if im running stock injectors with a big 16g turbo and full rebuilt bottom and top end with eagle pistons bored .20 if i tune it will that be okay?

 

[beansblacktsi]

You have to be running some pretty high base fuel pressure and/or lean AFRs to stay below 100% IDC on 940's and E85 at that power level. (Not that I'm doubting you.)

My guess is somewhere around 55 psi base FP and an AFR around 12.5:1. Am I close?

Pretty damn close actually!! Right around 55psi base FP and 11.9-12.1 air fuels.

 

[snowborder714]

For future reference, that is the kind of info that should go along with your "I made over 500 on e85 and 940cc injectors" post. It is possible, but we can't have members going around and saying that without the full story

 

[flawlessTSI]

I made over 500hp with e85 on a walbro 390 intank and 1050c injectors. Base fuel pressure was at 50psi , idc's were at 120% .afr's were flat at 11.5 and lots of timmimg. No dyno just numbers from link and how much air flow.

 

[Diamond Star Werks]

I
Raise pump voltage - Makes most pumps happier (and some ecstatic) without changing IDCs or affecting the pressure relief point. Just a couple of extra volts (15v-16v) will dramatically raise the output volume of most pumps, as long as they can operate safely at the higher voltage.

How do you increase it over the alternators volts?

 

[snowborder714]

Boost-a-pump.

 

[EclipseOwner95]

Ok, now tell us why



Sounds like it

What pump? Rewired? Are you running a stock filter and the banjo bolt line to the rail.

I'm running dual in-tank 255's with -6 line from tank to rail, with an inline SS filter.

It's the only thing I can think causing high IDC's on 2150's at my power level.

 

[MY1GDSM]

I made over 500hp with e85 on a walbro 390 intank and 1050c injectors. Base fuel pressure was at 50psi , idc's were at 120% .afr's were flat at 11.5 and lots of timmimg. No dyno just numbers from link and how much air flow.

You don't know how much HP you made then... . An That's just bench racing. I could take about any log and tune and tweak it to say more or less 100hp.

It's matter a repeatable results on the same strip of road in a well calibrated car that any Estimate is good for when making changes an street tuning that it's of any real use... As accurate as it Can be at times.

As well Technically you can't go over 100% IDC the Injector can't do more then try to just stay open all the time... . There is a reason it's not recommend to go over 80% duty. To give the car room for unforeseen conditions. Intentionally do so it well ya... .

 

[Calan]

There is a reason it's not recommend to go over 80% duty. To give the car room for unforeseen conditions.

Not to mention that running a saturated injector coil at full current for any length of time isn't the best idea for the injector's health (or possibly even the ECU drivers).

 

[flawlessTSI]

Not to mention that running a saturated injector coil at full current for any length of time isn't the best idea for the injector's health (or possibly even the ECU drivers).

o well, i did it for over a year

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Not something to be proud of, and definitely not something that should be passed on as advice.

Especially without context.

 

[jrohner]

Where is the data that proves running over 80% duty cycle burns stuff out on our cars? Just saying it is no different than bench racing they frown upon here.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Would you argue that leaving yourself a margin of error is a bad thing? Perhaps you should figure out for yourself why it is an industry wide accepted concept.

Please explain to the class why running injectors full open and at full current through saturated drivers/coils is a good idea in your world..

Especially in a thread started by someone that doesn't know any better and as such implicitly endorsing it as advice.

 

[flawlessTSI]

it was done and for over a year. and on safe afrs and no "burnt up" ecu or injectors. i made over 500hp worth of air flow work on 1050cc injectors like the op was asking.

according to links injector settings for injectors on e85 i had to scale down the global settings on the injectors to compensate for e85 which brought it down to about a 750cc injector size . yes the idc would read higher but it will still be in a safe range of the injector...

look here. op this will help you.
baseinjectordata [ECMTuning - wiki]

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Now heres the issue: you were still reporting ~120% IDCs, even with base pressure at 50psi.

There is no way to spin that as a good idea. Raise the base pressure enough to bring it down to 80% at the same fuel mass flow, and you are going to be well beyond the service pressure range of pretty much any electric pump with even a mild amount of boost thrown on top.

Maybe if you were running a Waterman or Aeromotive mechanical pump would that make sense to use 4-5bar base pressure... but even then you would still be better off moving to a bigger set of injectors.

I'm glad it worked out for you, but don't tout exercises in pushing your luck as practical advice.

 

[Diamond Star Werks]

Whats the point off running so close to failure just to reach a certain goal? Maybe you bought those thinking they were enough and pushed them so far because you didn't want to buy another set. I don't know.

What I do know is that when it comes to beginners trying to learn, telling them that riding on the edge of failure is ok because you "say" you've done it is a bad idea. There is absolutely no reason to tell someone thats just starting to go after a goal that you can use 1050cc injectors, push them to the limit, & they can reach the goal. Bad advice.

There is absolutely no point in op getting 1050cc injectors so he can overrun them to just barely make his goal. When he can buy 1250s, 1500s, or 1850s and have a better running, more precise tuned car.

 

[Calan]

Nobody has said that running over 80% will destroy injectors or ECU drivers. But running an injector coil (or any mechanical coil for that matter) at full saturation generates heat...and injector coils aren't designed to withstand increasing heat for an extended period of of time. Think about it; a light bulb element is basically just a coil that is specifically designed to pass continuous current...and even they eventually burn out.

Hitting 100% IDC every now and then or even continuously on a track pull probably isn't going to burn up the injectors. But it's still not a good idea to push something beyond design limits when you don't have to.

For some reason, I now have a morbid curiosity to hook up an old injector to a 12 volt battery and resistor pack and see if I can burn out the coil.

 

[jrohner]

That's my main issue with IDC numbers, if 120% is possible (which makes no sense at all) then is 80% actually 40% below the maximum?

Nobody has said that running over 80% will destroy injectors or ECU drivers. But running an injector coil (or any mechanical coil for that matter) at full saturation generates heat...and injector coils aren't designed to withstand increasing heat for an extended period of of time. Think about it; a light bulb element is basically just a coil that is specifically designed to pass continuous current...and even they eventually burn out.

Hitting 100% IDC every now and then or even continuously on a track pull probably isn't going to burn up the injectors. But it's still not a good idea to push something beyond design limits when you don't have to.

What are the specs on the 'limits'? This seems to me, again, like hearsay.
Heat? Theres a thing called fuel going through the injector all the time, more IDC means more cooling (fuel) flow.


Your fuel pump relay is on at all times that the car is running -- you should shut your car off every few minutes to let it cool off so it doesn't burn out.

For some reason, I now have a morbid curiosity to hook up an old injector to a 12 volt battery and resistor pack and see if I can burn out the coil.

Sounds like mythbusters poor testing techniques.

Whats the point off running so close to failure just to reach a certain goal?

Again, prove of failure please.

Then is it a safe assumption that you are also going to say if I can make 400hp on a 16G I should turn it down to 300hp to be safe and to take it easy on the turbo because it might be bad?

 

[flawlessTSI]

in theory those points are correct but a injector will never stay "wide open". show me proof.

 

[Calan]

That's my main issue with IDC numbers, if 120% is possible (which makes no sense at all) then is 80% actually more than 40% under the maximum.

IDC is just a resulting calculation; not an actually measure of anything. Anything up to 100% is a result of the pulsewidth and available time for the injector to be open. Anything over that is a theoretical number that can't be reached because the injector is always open (or possibly in rapid oscillation without ever fully closing, depending on what the ECU drivers are doing).

It's like thinking of a bucket of water. It can be 0 to 100% full, but it can't be 120% full. But, you could get a theoretical value of 120% full, based on how fast you were filling the bucket in any given amount of time. "If the bucket was x size, it would be 120% full by now."

(I think that analogy works... it's been a long day. )

Heat? Theres a thing called fuel going through the injector all the time, more IDC means more cooling (fuel) flow.

Injector coils are pretty well isolated though, IIRC. In fact, I think most of them are encased in non-conductive resin, which would do a pretty good job of keeping the heat in the coil.

Most relay coils are much more rugged since they are designed for a continuous duty cycle, and have windings that can tolerate much more current.

 

[jrohner]

Most relay coils are much more rugged since they are designed for a continuous duty cycle, and have windings that can tolerate much more current.

But again, where is the proof that the injectors most of us run are designed for <80% duty cycle?

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

That's my main issue with IDC numbers, if 120% is possible (which makes no sense at all) then is 80% actually 40% below the maximum?

No. 120% IDC means the ECU is holding the injector open full and is still 20% short on fuel mass.

What are the specs on the 'limits'? This seems to me, again, like hearsay.
Heat? Theres a thing called fuel going through the injector all the time, more IDC means more cooling (fuel) flow.

Do some research. Call the manufacturer. Because you are clearly missing what is being spelled out for you, or because it is not what you want to read it is being rejected out of hand. Cognitive Dissonance is funny that way..

Your fuel pump relay is on at all times that the car is running -- you should shut your car off every few minutes to let it cool off so it doesn't burn out.

Apples and oranges.

Sounds like mythbusters poor testing techniques.



Again, prove of failure please.

Then is it a safe assumption that you are also going to say if I can make 400hp on a 16G I should turn it down to 300hp to be safe and to take it easy on the turbo because it might be bad?

Again, apples and oranges.

You have some reading to do.

in theory those points are correct but a injector will never stay "wide open". show me proof.

This is theory, in the way that gravity is a theory. Arguably, tighter case than that even.

Injectors do stick open, and sometimes closed. This is an occasional fact of EFI.

But again, where is the proof that the injectors most of us run are designed for <80% duty cycle?

Call the manufacturers. See if you can get a hold of a Bosch or Denso rep.

Give Jens @ FIC a ring and hear it for yourself.

 

[jrohner]

IDC is just a resulting calculation; not an actually measure of anything. anything up to 100% is a result of the pulsewidth and available time for the injector to be open. Anything over that is a theoretical number that can't be reached because the injector is always open.

It's like thinking of a bucket of water. It can be 0 to 100% full, but it can't be 120% full. But, you could get a theoretical value of 120% full, based on how fast you were filling the bucket in any given amount of time. "If the bucket was x size, it would be 120% full by now."
.

Why do you think I said it makes no sense? Because you can't have >100% of something. So I guess we're going to take something as gospel that doesn't even match up correctly. What I'm saying is that if we can see a number of 120%, then what actually is 80% and why should I not break it?

I see if I have injector left by richening my tune and seeing if my AFR's richen up with it.

 

[flawlessTSI]

after injectors are past 100% duty cycle it is then controlled by fuel pressure. thats why i raised my fuel pressure.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Why do you think I said it makes no sense? Because you can't have >100% of something. So I guess we're going to take something as gospel that doesn't even match up correctly. What I'm saying is that if we can see a number of 120%, then what actually is 80% and why should I not break it?

I see if I have injector left by richening my tune and seeing if my AFR's richen up with it.

What we're saying, Calan more diplomatically than I, is that because you don't understand it doesn't make something wrong/impossible

120% IDC is basically the ECU saying "we're giving it all we've got captain, but its just not enough"

 

[jrohner]

What we're saying, Calan more diplomatically than I, is that because you don't understand it doesn't make something wrong/impossible

120% IDC is basically the ECU saying "we're giving it all we've got captain, but its just not enough"

So 120% of something IS possible. Wow, I totally got it now.