Dynoed Today (AGP L2R)

[larryd]

Originally posted by NJGSX96
Not sure if you mentioned this or someone else asked, but did they plug in the wideband? What did your O2s look like?

yes I did post it but I figured this might be better.. Ill just show you the dyno with the wideband plot.

http://www.newcelica.org/larryd/dyno/dyno-28psi-02.jpg

BTW incase you cant read it, the wideband showed a reading around 11.9-12.1 most of the time.

Originally posted by herostar
good job larry, are you going to tune it befor/after you swap it?

Im probably going to take it back after I swap everything because I intend on doing
the cams and all that nice stuff when the engine is out of the car..

Originally posted by tsitalon1
Larry, I don't know if you thought of this but there was no airflow for cooling across your Ic when you did the dyno runs.. Place a Large fan in front of the Ic and try again on pump gas... good luck,
James

we had a pretty large size fan blowing on the ICs.. I just didnt get to use my co2 sprayer cuz
I forgot to fill up the bottle

 

[trooth]

Ok well here are some of my thoughts to begin with, as I've had some personal experience with the car.

First I'll start with flow... He is running a stock 2G exhaust manifold that is, if best, a crappy port job. That in my opinion is one bottleneck. Additionally, he has a ported 2G head, but to the best of my knowledge only the intake side was ported and port-matched to the 1G intake manifold. So, you have your bigger TB, IM and O2 dump, with the 3" exhaust - and a non-ported exhaust side of the head, and semi-ported 2G manifold. In my mind thats a pretty big restriction. I've heard the arguements to use a 1G head, and Larry swears to me people say the 2G head has better flow characteristics... however, giving the unported exhaust side, and the semi ported 2G manifold - its pretty safe to say its causing some bottlenecks with the amount of flow your trying to produce.

Secondly he has some timing issues. I haven't done enough reading to be able to tell what all is involved with tuning the CAS for a 1G block. When I checked his car with a timing light, it was set to about 10 degrees. I adjusted it down to 5... yet his DSMlink was still logging around 8-10 degrees of timing, right larry? So I'm not sure what may or may not be setup correctly there - but something is definately amiss.

Just some food for thought to those who want to assist in the tuning.

 

[larryd]

Well as I said before going on what I was told when I had the car built we did not port the exhaust side of the head for a reason. If you dont port that side then you can increase the speed of the air coming out which should help spool the turbo faster.

The 2g manifold isnt much of a restriction at this power level, not that im aware of.. though Im sure I could pick up a nice gain if I had a tubular manifold. But Id rather have a sheet metal IM and cams before i did that.

But yes, the power or lack of in some peoples minds is all about the timing on the car. The more I look at the logs the more impressed I am. The thing I left out of this post till now is that I also managed to pull a 369 whp run on 26psi with better timing. I cant get that dyno to come up in the dyno program on the pc to get a screen capture yet.

 

[Airpoppoff]

Just curious larry, but i was wondering was that run ON the c02 Spray or OFF, ????? or did you try both...?????

Very very respectable larry, we know you will get tons more out of your gsx when you first drop it on the dyno, and thell be more to come after you do the changeover too, i dont care what anyone says about a smaller turbo doing that much, Im sorry but for as much money youve put into that car, you deserve numbers like that, and even better to come, #@%#@%#@%s with 16g's could only dream about spending 16g's on their car to make it the speed style and looks of yours


oh and btw, it looks like you had to rally your car through a mud puddle to get there it was so dirty

 

[larryd]

that was with the sprayer off.. I forgot to fill the co2 bottle before I went to the dyno so i didnt get to use it..

 

[TRBOTSI]

Originally posted by larryd


thankyou for the good post..

This is how I see it. I am not one of the members on the board who hypes the L2R and says it is the god send of turbos. I got it because my Big28 blew up and I wanted to step up to something bigger/better and it was between this and the Green.

Very true... Everyone hypes this turbo up so much and some of the people don't even have one...

 

[TSi92]

Originally posted by jdmawd
i once heard of a guy that made 600 hp on a 17c turbo at 10 psi

http://www.contmech.com/roberto/

He doesn't have the dyno sheet scanned but he made close to 400 whp with a 20g and stock cams. His 12.01@117 speaks for itself.

Great numbers Larry and congrats to Dave also. Im not going to sit behind my computer, and make wise remarks about the numbers that you guys have put up. what other people have made, with other setups and turbo's is not relevant to this topic. Larry's 383 and Dave's 372 is damn impressive. Dave picked up 25whp with the increase of 1 psi im sure if this was a BAND WAGON TURBO thread. it would be all pats on the back, and high fives. those who criticize these guys, I ask *what have you done?* looks like bench racing at its finest congrats to Larry and Dave lets see the haters, go out and make 374/383 anything at any psi.??? exactly

I guess I fall into that "hater" group. Well, I'm not hating but I'm just not drooling over 380 hp with a $1500+ turbo. It proves that buying a bad ass turbo is not exactly the answer to go fast. I don't have a dyno sheet because my car's down for now but before it broke it ran 13.9@105 mph at 14 psi 2.3 60 foot and seat of my pants tuning. So that's far from it's full potential. Once I get it running I'll strap her to the dyno and tune it for 92 pump and C-16. I still have stock intake manifold and cams and have no plans to upgrade those in the near future.

I'm sure that car still should put down about 50 more whp with more tuning. Try tuning at less boost and more agressive timing. My guess is that you might be loosing some degrees at the top end.

 

[TSi92]

Originally posted by larryd


But yes, the power or lack of in some peoples minds is all about the timing on the car. The more I look at the logs the more impressed I am. The thing I left out of this post till now is that I also managed to pull a 369 whp run on 26psi with better timing. I cant get that dyno to come up in the dyno program on the pc to get a screen capture yet.

I just read this after my last reply. Just like I suspected, you have timing retard problems. Remember, it's better to have healthy timing than high boost.

 

[larryd]

one more thing to keep in mind with this turbo is the spooland zero lag between shifts. Im not trying to be a salesman here but there are more reasons to buy the L2R then just straight out power.

Ive never personally ridden in a car with a larger turbo so I dont know first hand anything about lag between shifts and spool of anything over a Big28 but I can tell you there is NO lag on the L2R at all, the thing hits boost instantly at anything over 4000rpms. If you look at my other post about dyno comparison you will see the L2R is hitting at about the same rate as my Big28 was, just a little later and it hits over 100whp higher. Not to shabby for a big turbo when I know I still have a boost leak.

Like I said, not trying to be a salesman but sometimes it seems as if I have to stand up for my purchase

 

[GSX_RCR]

Great numbers. It can only get better once you get everyting tuned and in order.

I think the L2R will prove itself once we get more people on the dyno and on the tracks. And like you stated, it's not all about your "peak" HP #s...but the area under the curve, and the quick spooling advantages.

 

[Rx3]

Originally posted by larryd


yes im working with the DSMlink.. I am still having all sorts of trouble getting the baseline fuel settings and injector dead time set with the DSMlink. This is part of my problem.

Maybe it's time to upgrade that as well. Have you been checking up on the AEM Management systems? Maybe your fuel tuning would be more precise with that unit..... I'm just gettung started tuning myself with the S-AFC, but I am familiar with HAltech and Motech (Fornula SAE) and I've been getting a lot of practice working on the M4. I was thinking getting the AEM once I finish getting the rest of my parts (re: injectors, FMIC, turbo of choice) for tuning. If you haven't yet, check out the AEM.


Congrats on the dyno, 383 is nothing to sneeze at

P.S. When did you get the GSX?

 

[hekaboost]

just curious here...

has anyone gone really fast on an agp? i realize they haven't been around that long, but until someone does what is the hype about? Is it because they are the first BB hybrid turbo's? I'm just guessing, but has anyone asked fp why they haven't released theirs? Maybe I'm crazy, but I'm going to assume there is a reason fp hasn't released theirs as fast as agp has. FP has never led dsm guys wrong on turbo's so i'm assuming there is a very good reason why its not released and that reason might be in the agp turbo's and what fp is trying to work out. So far i've heard of a guy going slower with an agp, but no times to astonish anyone. I know of a green making 400+ hp on pump gas.

I'm not meaning to spam the thread or put down anyone's setup. I'm just curious how people can hype something up when i've seen nothing to justify the hype other then the right for people to say "i own a bb hybrid turbo".

So far people say "why do you guys say their is something wrong with the turbo?" as if to defend it. Again, maybe i'm nuts but every other product on his car has been proven to haul and give forth great times. I think a few people question the turbo because its the only unknown part on the car. just putting a little reason into the thread *shrugs*

 

[95GST]

Just curious Larry did you drive the car on the street with 28 PSI? How did that feel?

The suggestion to "upgrade" to AEM just because you cannot get the DSMLINK fuel trims tuned correctly is totally absurd.

The DSMLINK is by no means holding Larry back, from the log he posted there is no knock on his 28 PSI run and his timing peaked 17 degrees from 6k+ He could have added some timing gradually and pick up some HP. I assume he ran out of time or ran out of runs.

If you have been on the dyno before you'd know you need to let the engine cool a little between runs while you make adjustments, and 1 hour or 2 will easily go by.

Some of you guys should at least read the thread and his log before making guesses that he's getting timing pulled etc... blah blah. If you're going to bench race, at least read the damn posts.

 

[L2RTSiAWD]

I wish I could dyno tune my car.

 

[DSMTurbos]

a guy has done 11.9 on gst on the l2r with only drag radials no slicks not sure of other times though

 

[swordfish]

Larry. Good start man! Dont let some of these guys get you down with the negative comments. Once you get to these power levels progress just takes time and patience. Especially when dealing with the 2G ECU. You are making good power for all the problems you are having and for running stock cams. Stick with it and listen to those who have experience at these power levels and you will get to where you want to go.

I've have gone through the same things you are going through. Anytime you post some of your info hoping you may get some helpful hints, about 70% of the replys you get will be negative. Thats why I have pretty much stopped posting info on my car, because those with no experience always seem to have some derrogatory comment. When in actuality those "friends" who are making the high power with the smaller turbos may have spent 15 hours tuning their cars when you have only spent about 2 actually tuning and the rest just coming to grips with the DSMLink.

Once you get all the kinks ironed out, I'm sure you'll be into the 400+ whp range. Good luck man.

jeff

 

[Rx3]

Originally posted by 95GST
[B
The suggestion to "upgrade" to AEM just because you cannot get the DSMLINK fuel trims tuned correctly is totally absurd.

The DSMLINK is by no means holding Larry back, from the log he posted there is no knock on his 28 PSI run and his timing peaked 17 degrees from 6k+ He could have added some timing gradually and pick up some HP. I assume he ran out of time or ran out of runs.

If you have been on the dyno before you'd know you need to let the engine cool a little between runs while you make adjustments, and 1 hour or 2 will easily go by.

Some of you guys should at least read the thread and his log before making guesses that he's getting timing pulled etc... blah blah. If you're going to bench race, at least read the damn posts. [/B]

Why don't you read the damn posts, before you accuse people of "bench racing"? Here it is again for your benefit:

Originally posted by larryd


yes im working with the DSMlink.. I am still having all sorts of trouble getting the baseline fuel settings and injector dead time set with the DSMlink. This is part of my problem.

Sounds like he is having a problem getting his settings "dead tine set" with DSM link. So how is suggesting another tool that might be able to get these settings set correctly absured?

If the problem is Larry and not the DSMlink, then I'm sure Larry would say something to that effect. You getting on your "I'm know more than you because I've been on a dyno" rant isn't helping to clarify the situation any.

IF YOU have ever been on a dyno, you'd know there is more than one tool for tuning. Some are more precise than others.

 

[hekaboost]

Sounds like he is having a problem getting his settings "dead tine set" with DSM link. So how is suggesting another tool that might be able to get these settings set correctly absured?

If the problem is Larry and not the DSMlink, then I'm sure Larry would say something to that effect.

---i'll keep it short. Many tune with dsmlink with more hp then his setup, it works. switching ems's till one works isn't a solution at all. according to your logic if it doesn't work find something that does? then he'd need to switch turbo's and give up on that also since other turbo's that are smaller and gotten better times/dyno results (green turbo). the logic is flawed and i agree that swtich ems's isn't the solution.

 

[TSi92]

Originally posted by Rx3



Maybe it's time to upgrade that as well. Have you been checking up on the AEM Management systems? Maybe your fuel tuning would be more precise with that unit..... I'm just gettung started tuning myself with the S-AFC, but I am familiar with HAltech and Motech (Fornula SAE) and I've been getting a lot of practice working on the M4. I was thinking getting the AEM once I finish getting the rest of my parts (re: injectors, FMIC, turbo of choice) for tuning. If you haven't yet, check out the AEM.


Congrats on the dyno, 383 is nothing to sneeze at

P.S. When did you get the GSX?

DSMLink should be a good tuning tool for his needs. If buschur made 650+ whp with a VPC and GCC, I don't see why you need to go with a standalone EMS for your tuning needs. All he needs is more careful tuning and check for leaks.

 

[Violater101]

I'm using DSMLink and 720cc injectors and don't have any problem with deadtime ...i do find it weird that 660cc had deadtime of 180 and then 720 had deadtime of 450. Quite a big jump, but i'm not well versed on deadtime mechanics. My deadtime ended up being set at 480 and i'm currently on stock fpr with walbro 255hp.

 

[larryd]

Originally posted by hekaboost
just curious here...

has anyone gone really fast on an agp? i realize they haven't been around that long, but until
someone does what is the hype about? Is it because they are the first BB hybrid turbo's? I'm just
guessing, but has anyone asked fp why they haven't released theirs? Maybe I'm crazy, but I'm going
to assume there is a reason fp hasn't released theirs as fast as agp has. FP has never led dsm guys
wrong on turbo's so i'm assuming there is a very good reason why its not released and that reason might
be in the agp turbo's and what fp is trying to work out. So far i've heard of a guy going slower
with an agp, but no times to astonish anyone. I know of a green making 400+ hp on pump gas.

Please dont even start to turn this into a Green vs L2R or FP vs AGP thread. Im happy with my turbo and
I know it has alot left in it. I give FP credit as they release great products and stick by them. Simple
as that..

Originally posted by 95GST
Just curious Larry did you drive the car on the street with 28 PSI? How did that feel?

The suggestion to "upgrade" to AEM just because you cannot get the DSMLINK fuel trims tuned correctly is
totally absurd.

The DSMLINK is by no means holding Larry back, from the log he posted there is no knock on his 28 PSI run
and his timing peaked 17 degrees from 6k+ He could have added some timing gradually and pick up some HP.
I assume he ran out of time or ran out of runs.

If you have been on the dyno before you'd know you need to let the engine cool a little between runs while
you make adjustments, and 1 hour or 2 will easily go by.

Some of you guys should at least read the thread and his log before making guesses that he's getting timing
pulled etc... blah blah. If you're going to bench race, at least read the damn posts.

No I didnt run the 28psi on the street. As soon as I was done on the dyno I turned the boost back down to 17psi
and put the pump gas back in the car to take it home.

My problems do not revolve around the DSMlink. Do I think Id be better off with a Haltech or AEM EMS, yes I do.
Do I think I can get my car running great with the DSMlink, yes I do. This is my only issue with the DSMlink.
Sometimes to make ALOT of power you have to deal with a small amount of knock, unfortunately with the DSMlink and
the stock ECU as soon as you see knock the timing gets pulled and you can not make the power you want to make. So
effectively you have to tune for 0 knock on the DSMlink which is not what all racers do.

As for the dyno session and why I didnt increase timing, Im a newbie to tuning and Im taking everything one step
at a time. I did increase the timing one degree but I dont know enough about the timing to know how much was safe.
Now that I know better Im aware I should have turned the boost down to 25-26lbs and increased the timing 4-5
degrees. But at the time I was doing it I did not care as my only goal at that point was to get over 372 which was
a pissing match between GSX4Life and myself.

Originally posted by swordfish
Larry. Good start man! Dont let some of these guys get you down with the negative comments. Once you get to
these power levels progress just takes time and patience. Especially when dealing with the 2G ECU. You are making
good power for all the problems you are having and for running stock cams. Stick with it and listen to those who
have experience at these power levels and you will get to where you want to go.

I've have gone through the same things you are going through. Anytime you post some of your info hoping you may get
some helpful hints, about 70% of the replys you get will be negative. Thats why I have pretty much stopped posting
info on my car, because those with no experience always seem to have some derrogatory comment. When in actuality those
"friends" who are making the high power with the smaller turbos may have spent 15 hours tuning their cars when you have
only spent about 2 actually tuning and the rest just coming to grips with the DSMLink.

Once you get all the kinks ironed out, I'm sure you'll be into the 400+ whp range. Good luck man.

jeff

Thanks Jeff.. Im starting to realize that I shouldnt even bother posting anyything to try and be helpful anymore as I get
more negative responses about why I didnt make 1000whp then I get congrats for making 383whp

Im sure that with the timing increased a few degrees and the boost turned down a few lbs I would have hit 400whp, Im
also sure that once I put this engine into my GSX with the HKS264/272 cams and possibly a sheet metal intake
manifold the car will go on to make even mroe power and get up closer to maxing out the L2R.

Originally posted by hekaboost
Sounds like he is having a problem getting his settings "dead tine set" with DSM link. So how is suggesting another
tool that might be able to get these settings set correctly absured?

If the problem is Larry and not the DSMlink, then I'm sure Larry would say something to that effect.

---i'll keep it short. Many tune with dsmlink with more hp then his setup, it works. switching ems's till one works
isn't a solution at all. according to your logic if it doesn't work find something that does? then he'd need to
switch turbo's and give up on that also since other turbo's that are smaller and gotten better times/dyno results
(green turbo). the logic is flawed and i agree that swtich ems's isn't the solution.

Switching tuning tools is not going to resolve anything for me. I need to determine why my LTFTs are incorrect and
what my IDT should be set at. Once I get that resolved then I can go to town with the DSMlink. I would have to do
this same thing on every other setup as well. My only beef with the DSMlink is listed above. And here me say it now
Im not badmouthing the DSMlink nor am I badmouthing the L2r. Its a me issue. I am laerning to do this all as Im
going along and I dont expect to hit superb #s my first time trying to tune on the dyno.

 

[hekaboost]

i'm not badmouthing agp. I'm just wondering who has ran a damn good time on one of the turbo's? so far i've heard of guys going slower or no gain. I'm curious on the wheels on the turbo. Don't " me here, but i believe fp is working on a custom housing? agp uses a mitsu housing i believe? I'm not saying one is wrong or one is right, but i'm curious why fp didn't hurry up and slap a mitsu housing on it if it works well? i just have a feeling rob might know something and be fixing it before he releases his. it only makes sense *shrugs* or why would he not have rushed to get the turbo's to market? just a hunch on my part...nothing more at all

yes i love dsmlink also, wish it had a few more options, but hopefully v2.0 will. guess i'll keep my fingers crossed

 

[larryd]

yea Im honestly not sure why FP hasnt mass released the 30. I know they have sold it to a select few people but nothing in the masses.

 

[spooldswede]

i'm probably repeating what ev1 else has already said... i only had the strength to read the first 2 pages.. phew!!

great number (383whp)... but like u said urself, the 17psi result was pretty dissapointing...

work on it, cus i wanna see the potential of this turbo on a decently modded dsm..

i may now jump on the 20g or t3/t4 bandwagon instead, since i personally witnessed a very not well tuned t3/t4 do 348whp on 17psi on pump gas!!... and i've heard of many people (NO, NOT PROS) doing 350+whp (someone i know did 380whp) with the 20g...

either way.. work on it, cus i do like the other features of the L2R...

good luck bro!

 

[larryd]

as I said before.. the power is there to be made.. I just have to get it tuned better.. Especially for pump gas.. I really need to eliminate the knock on pump gas and Im sure Ill get well over 300whp on pump on low boost.

Also one other thing, dont forget that peak power is not the only thing that you should consider when purchasing a turbo. this turbo spools insanely fast and has NO lag between shifts at all..