Dynoed the car 832AWHP E85

[standard235]

Hey Standard235, I have two cars on E85, both over 500hp, how many you have?

One of mine doesn't run an intercooler and uses 30gph of Meth, I think I know a thing or two about tuning Ethanol and how to make power.

Why don't you go look up a fuel chart on E85 before you run your mouth, then see what E98 looks like on that chart for max Torque. Keep running it lean homie.

Yeah well I have three and my e penis is bigger so I don't care.

so run and tell that, HOMEBOI

 

[Car Cannibal]

I meant to say, I'd run E98 closer to 9.8 AF/R (gas scale) and to start the tune at 9.5 AF/R.

Nothing like a guy giving advice about E85 whose burnt up sets of plugs after sets of plugs. The facts are out there, but who needs those pesky things when you have a big E Penis.

 

[bastarddsm]

JohnTIS, what has been your limiting factor? Are you running into knock? What sort of IAT's do you like to see?

 

[dsm-onster]

Car Cannibal. I'm not following you either. . . Ethanol can be run at a leaner LAMBDA than gasoline. On the gas scale that seams to show best torque for me and the rest of the world is 12.5:1. On the ethanol scale that 12.5:1 is 8.3:1 e85 scale.

Now this talk of 9.8:1 on gas scale? That is 6.5:1 with ethanol. Silly stuff there as that is about stoich for methanol. . .

 

[Doubleot]

Very impressive!

 

[EclipticalGS]

I meant to say, I'd run E98 closer to 9.8 AF/R (gas scale) and to start the tune at 9.5 AF/R.

Nothing like a guy giving advice about E85 whose burnt up sets of plugs after sets of plugs. The facts are out there, but who needs those pesky things when you have a big E Penis.

Yeah ive been tuning on e-85 for the past year, and every dyno ive went to, to tune my car, Tells me to stay around 12.0 afr (gas scale) for a street tune, and about 12.5 or more until knock, with an aggressive tune.. Not to mention my cruise trims which are 17.0...

These people have been using E85/98 spring blends in Michigan for 3 years now and they have 2 cars that make over a 1000rwhp at their shop.

Have fun running 9.8 on E85 (gas scale)...When everyone and their brother knows that E85 can be ran leaner with more timing on the gas scale because it runs colder and burns slower. Moreover, Its close to 104 octane.

Im not following you at all, or the point your trying to make???

 

[turbotalon1g]

A guy making an incredible car for an incredible type of racing brings his build over here and of course some jackass with a 500whp DSM thinks he should tell this guy what to do.
Now maybe it was just you trying to be nice, but don't think you can just throw some shit together overnight without knowing something and make 1033whp on DSMlink, I'm sure he picked up some significant HP on teh dyno or at least made the tune safe.

Mile/LSR isn't something some regular joe can take his sweet race car and do no problem, at least not at the level these guys are playing at.

Good luck John, Can't wait to see the vids.

 

[400hp93talon]

You would never guess that 1g has more than a 1000whp.....That is an amazing DSM!!!!!!!

 

[16g DSM]

see ya'll what we have here is a failure to comunicate like adults. This is dsmtuners not dsmdaycare! grow up!

P.S. the very sight of MY E-PENIS has both of yours cowarding in the corner! !

 

[dsm-onster]

Cool Hand Luke.

You would never guess that 1g has more than a 1000whp.....That is an amazing DSM!!!!!!!

Tell me about it. Such a humble look. Non-aggressive stance. Simple stock forrest green paint from 1992. Nothing in the stillshot other than the rubber revealing the malevolence within.

 

[JohnTSI]

Wow awesome numbers, especially considering the really low timing.

I'd run E98 closer to 10.8 AF/R (gas scale) on a FI vehicle, high 11's could be considered a tad lean for a FI gas engine let alone E98.

I know you're not going back to the dyno, but I'd start around 10.5 AF/R and see how the power responds as you get leaner to find your safe, yet peak power AF/R.

I have made 1033awhp in this car, there is another thread about it here. The a/f is leaner than I would like it at this point but I was out of fuel 105% duty cycle on 2150s with over 50 base fuel pressure. That said on this fuel that a/f is acceptable its still on the first set of plugs I put in the car at this point and no signs of problems when you pull them.

Car has not shown any signs of detonation at this point and makes good power but I would prefer to put the a/f back in the low 11s on a gas scale. Car will be testing a new prototype manifold soon, then I will add 4 more 1000cc injectors and fix my fuel needs.

I don't mind other input I try new things, but I know where the car makes power and how this fuel works so I think I will stick with what works for me.

 

[Car Cannibal]

OP, not dogging, just saying if you have another opportunity to go back with a bigger fuel system, fatten it up and see if the power moves. BTU + Air = Power.

For those who talk without facts, here is an E85 chart for N/A vehicles, make of it what you want. I personally tune for power (torque) on my E85 engines, not how lean I can go without knock. Scroll down to TABLE
E85 in standard engines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Look at the Rich and Lean Lambda for N/A on gas, then E85. Keep in mind FI engines need more fuel than N/A, or don't, whatever.

For every story you have of Joe Horsepower at 12.5 AF/R, you can search for E85 turbo vehicles over 1000HP that are 11:1 AF/R and richer. One is safe, one is on the edge, not any different than running C16 to 13:1 and saying it's not knocking so it must be right.

 

[dsm-onster]

And if you notice in the very chart to which you are refering there is a range of a/f ratios for peak power. And the max lean lambda for peak power for e85 is leaner than the max rich lambda for peak power for gasoline. And considering the amount of flooding the lower a/f ratio of e85 required to net those labda numbers, its no wonder that my car performs better running 12.1-12.5:1 on the gas scale. That is on the lean end of the range of max power lambdas for ethanol.

A side note: you will notice that it is gasoline with such a narrow "window" of peak power lambda. This means that any tune going upwards getting to that tiny window greatly increases power. e85 is already in its "window" of ideal mixture for power for most of the STOCK fuel curve in the 1g/2g ecu map. This is why folks get such great results leaning their gas setups out. And also why bickering about .5 a/f ratio difference with an ethanol setup is fruitless even in the spirit of rule-of-thumb. After all, the OP who has made close to 1000whp is already in the middle of the max power lambda range for his fuel.​

The max lean lambda for peak power for e98 is EVEN LEANER than the e85 max lean lambda for peak power. The same max rich lambda for peak power for e98/100 is as well for e85: 0.714. . . This corresponds to 10.5:1 on the gas scale, This is max rich for most power. You were talking starting the tune at 9.5 and prefering the tune to sit at 9.8 on the gas scale

Your BTU + AIR = Power equation is not including one fundamental and highly influential principle.

 

[JohnTSI]

Just for the record I could have made more power on E85 before I switched to E98, I truely believe the turbine housing was more the limiting factor than the fuel but since I was not logging exhaust back pressures I did not realize it. But with E98 as available to me as E85 I see no reason to go back.

 

[Car Cannibal]

I apologize to the OP, this wasn't what I intended, I believe when you make it richer it will make more power, especially TQ.

The chart was to put some data in here other than, brothers best friend shop owner.

The chart is based around NA vehicles, case in point being most FI and Big Block FI make more TQ below the max rich on pump gas AF/R of 12.5 right? My pump gas Talon made most it's TQ at 11.8 AF/R on the dyno. That's below 12.5 like the chart shows, other factors are in play here it's not the end all, one size fits all.

So 10.5 AF/R Max Rich Power is arguably the richest on NA, not FI. So I'd start a safe tune like I said on E98 in the high 9's and you can always work leaner from there. Who the hell would recommend starting an Ethanol fuel in the 12's AF/R with 30+ psi is a dick. I run my NA big block WOT at 12.5 on E85.

 

[400hp93talon]

Hey JohnTsi......You didnt happen to set a record for the highest horsepower using Dsmlink did you?....I was thinkin about it and I've never heard of anyone making over 850ish whp without switching to an aem ems. Oh and I like the Idea of adding 4 more 1000cc injectors.....YOUR CAR IS A ####IN BEAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[JohnTSI]

Yes I did. Thanks.

 

[dsm-onster]

You guys really know how to get the most out of Link! Glad to know that the limit set so far is practically double what I'm satisfied with. I'll never outgrow it.

I apologize to the OP, this wasn't what I intended, I believe when you make it richer it will make more power, especially TQ.

The chart was to put some data in here other than, brothers best friend shop owner.

The chart is based around NA vehicles, case in point being most FI and Big Block FI make more TQ below the max rich on pump gas AF/R of 12.5 right? My pump gas Talon made most it's TQ at 11.8 AF/R on the dyno. That's below 12.5 like the chart shows, other factors are in play here it's not the end all, one size fits all.

So 10.5 AF/R Max Rich Power is arguably the richest on NA, not FI. So I'd start a safe tune like I said on E98 in the high 9's and you can always work leaner from there. Who the hell would recommend starting an Ethanol fuel in the 12's AF/R with 30+ psi is a dick. I run my NA big block WOT at 12.5 on E85.

There is no need to explain elementary tuning methods in this thread, on either end. No one is talking a 'starting point'. This is the end result that John posted . . at 11ish:1 in the gas scale with ethanol. For your benefit: Pump gasoline is NOT ethanol. Don't draw conclusions about the various reactions of one chemical in reference to another; that would be similar to "brothers best friend shop owner" did such and such. As I said, 'Your BTU + AIR = Power equation is not including one fundamental and highly influential principle.'

 

[Car Cannibal]

Post #13, E98 at 11:6 AF/R produces highest torque.

What AF/R do you make the most power at Dsm-onster on gas with your FI engine?

For my benefit, what's that supposed to mean? I take it you're in the lean is mean camp with E98 too then? The answers below help those of us on Ethanol make the most power.

Which fuel has more BTU, Gas or E98?
Which fuel has a quicker burn rate?
Which produces more exhaust gas per weight of fuel?
Which produces more heat energy at say 100lbs of air and equivalent AF/R?
Do the answers above say anything about tuning richer or leaner?


If OP has a chance to go back to the dyno I'd put some $$ that torque goes up as he gets richer. Take the bet?

 

[BrokenTsi]

Whats wrong with the torque he's making? ^^^

 

[JohnTSI]

Car will be back on the dyno next week testing a new manifold.

Car seems happiest on the rich side but its out of fuel once the secondaies are on we will see.

 

[biglady112]

1500* seems to be a nice round number to keep a motor happy and make power.

We have had the best luck with 1400-1450* on the salt. 1500* he keeps an eye out, and 1550* he gets out of it. 1600*+ and the motor is shut off.

These are the things we learned over the past 18 months in LSR racing. Just thought I would share with you. Not sure if you have the ability to moitor EGT's, but that has been our magic numbers. Put us to 218mph no problem in october. We just need more power.

The car is fantastic John. Hopefully this year you can reap the rewards of all the hard work.

 

[dsm-onster]

I love how those of best intentions with little experience at given levels comes through when the big numbers show themselves. . . It always filters well. Numbers always bring to surface those that may have fooled themselves from the rest of the fold. . .

The answers to the above questions apparently are not relevant. What is the OP making to the wheels? What is working? What does he know about his setup? THOSE are the questions worthy of answering. You seam to think that he didn't notice that made less power at his initial a/f ratio vs. running richer. So you MUST CERTAINLY realize that he didn't find his medium; thus contribution. Is he an Idiot? Did he not see what was happeneing richer and then go in that direction?

. . . Back to reality, looks like he's found the answers to those REAL questions and continuing on. Yes! look at post 13. He found the sweet spot. MUCH leaner than your suggestions. Don't insult someone making twice the power you are by insinuating they didn't notice a supposed trend. . . But to tickle the ear, did he make highest torque any where close to your suggestied starting point? or did he make highest torque closer to 12:1? Let the man making the power educate. You: sit, listen, and tread lightly on the keyboard.

 

[biglady112]

Are you replying to me? Awefully hasty if you are. I 100% don't agree with using air/fuel ratios. Especially if you are using collective data(1 sensor that reads after all four cylinders collect). We have just had horrible luck relying on a wideband. I was just curious if John has used any EGT data. People would be sick if they saw our air/fuels on leaded fuel. Think single digits.

But, hopefully that was directed towards someone else Matt. I was just mearly making conversation and round about asking a question. I am a small fish in a big pond here. Still trying to improve and find the right combo to reach our goals.

 

[dsm-onster]

Oh sorry, not directed to you Steven

I too would speculate that data from each cylinder would be beneficial at this level. But I also am sitting "chris-chross-apple-sauce" taking in the knowledge that the OP is willing to contribute . Smart enough to know I'm not smart enough to help.