DSMs could rule the tracks

[D_Eclipse9916]

I love the pipe dreams, Mitsu will never look at our cars ever...ever...

My pipe dream, and somewhat realistic from just the growth of this forum is to have a SPEC DSM class in NASA. They have spec focus, spec miata, spec neon, etc. Why not a spec dsm? Seperated only by generation. As we have found out both awd and fwd have their advantages on a road course almost making them equal. However even this is a pipe dream....

I have worked more than a few NASA events and have only seen one dsm out there my entire time, now that I am starting driving, I still foresee me being the only dsm out there. Oh well!

 

[jtmcinder]

If you've only seen one DSM, then they aren't going to create a class for them. It just doesn't seem to work that way. They don't create classes to attract new people; they create classes for the people already racing.

Also, there's one huge difference between DSMs and Foci, Miatae, and Skittles: DSMs aren't made any more. That won't help, either.

But more power to you. Don't let my tacked-on-tail donkey impression slow you down.

- Jtoby

 

[Defiant]

I am trying as hard as I can to win a national championship, but I keep breaking my car. I'm sure it is a winner, but it doesn't stay together long enough to prove it.

And what did you break on the Datsuns? When my Chevy buddy helped me rebuild the roadster, he held up one of the rods and asked, "What the hell are they thinking of? This thing's for a 5-ton truck!"
Vizard says the L-series is one of only two OHC designs that was successful from the start.

Thousand dollars a race. Yeh, I'll be right there.

 

[Slow old poop]

And what did you break on the Datsuns? When my Chevy buddy helped me rebuild the roadster, he held up one of the rods and asked, "What the hell are they thinking of? This thing's for a 5-ton truck!"
Vizard says the L-series is one of only two OHC designs that was successful from the start.:

The Datsun 510 was the most bullet-proof car I ever owned. What did I break?

On one 600-mile strut-busting rally in Michigan, when the car was new, we collapsed the front (stock) springs. We replaced those with $15 rally springs and $15 rally struts from Datsun Competition.

On a winter rally, I slid off the road and broke a tie rod. We drove the car 50 miles back to the start point and retired. Next morning, we welded the tie rod together and drove it home.

We were running 600W of lights up front, and the 45A alternator couldn't handle it. The lights would go brown halfway through a rally, so we had to exchange batteries with the service car at the meal halt. We replaced it with a 70A Dodge alternator.

In one long run between service crew visits, we broke a throttle return spring, the exhaust came loose, and a battery cable came loose, all at the same time.

I remember all this because the car was so trouble free, those were the only problems.

Thousand dollars a race. Yeh, I'll be right there.

$1000 a race is for a long tow with my truck (Mr 10 MPG), trailer, crew, and all expenses for a two-day weekend. When I used to just drive to the track in the car, it was a lot cheaper. When I ran on pump gas, it was cheaper (110 octane is $5-7 a gallon)

We have had some really cheap track days. We used to cruise over to Marshalltown to run the go-kart track on Wednesday afternoons. That cost $25 a car, until the track got greedy and jacked the price.

We used to caravan over to Midamerica Motorplex (MAM) when they first opened, and would run for $50 a car. Sometimes, 12 of us would have the entire track to ourselves. These days, MAM charges $50 for what it calls "Fast Fridays," where you can run from noon to sundown.

You can sometimes find a club running at a track midweek, and the entry fee is way down. Blackhawk Farms has been known to host $100 club events.

Rich

 

[Flash]

If we had enough passionate racers that would be willing to support a national event that was centered around road racing I'm sure the people at Mitsu would look our way. Unfortunately I just don't see us having the numbers we need to make it happen.

Chris, I bet you didn't see this site getting to be as large as what it is. It just proves everything is possible. Stick with it! Wait until Genoa opens then reevaluate. What your trying to do in the Rocky Mountain region is not going unnoticed.

 

[Slow old poop]

Hey Rich,Your mechanical problems are typical when starting a new race program. If there was a single solution to be a success right out of the box I never found it. I can tell that every part on the Banana had been changed due to age, wear, or breakage, and it was a never-ending process (and that’s what racing is all about!):

That means when I sell the car at the end of the season, it wil be ready for SOMEBODY ELSE to win a national champoinship. By that time, we will have fixed everything, and it will be ready to go...for somebody else to campaign. *sigh*

I'm glad to hear it's not just me, it's the sorting out process. I was beginning to think I have a black cloud over my head.

Come back, Shane. Post more.

 

[Slow old poop]

If you've only seen one DSM, then they aren't going to create a class for them. It just doesn't seem to work that way. They don't create classes to attract new people; they create classes for the people already racing.- Jtoby

Our fearless leader, Greg Collier, worked tirelessly last year to get NASA prepared to run a spec DSM class. If enough cars showed up, we would have had such a class. Alas, despite assurances from a bunch of people, few DSMs are actually competing.

At Iowa Speedway, there was one other DSM running. He ran HPDE on Saturday, got a signoff from the head instructor, and ran TT on Sunday.

We see some DSMs at Road America, including my old black Talon (Underradar) and Elvenhome, both from Wisconsin. Both should be in TT sometime this summer.

It will be interesting to see how many DSMs show up for the AMS event in Chicago. Maybe we need to start with low cost regional events like AMS to build interest. We can't expect dozens of DSMs to suddenly show up at race tracks. Gotta build interest from the bottom up, not the top down.

We've tried to get DSMs to show up at Midamerica Motorplex (near Omaha) for $150 track days, but no luck so far. Other than telling you that running a track day gives you a great woodie and puts a big smile on your face, I don't know how to get folks to the track.

Rich

 

[schemauer]

Rich - Make sure you find me if you're going to the AMS track day.

Scott
#33 Archer Racing Talon

 

[Slow old poop]

Rich - Make sure you find me if you're going to the AMS track day.

Scott
#33 Archer Racing Talon

It all depends on whether we have it back together in time. We broke it at Iowa Speedway, and don't know what's wrong yet.

 

[Ludachris]

Our fearless leader, Greg Collier, worked tirelessly last year to get NASA prepared to run a spec DSM class. If enough cars showed up, we would have had such a class. Alas, despite assurances from a bunch of people, few DSMs are actually competing.

At Iowa Speedway, there was one other DSM running. He ran HPDE on Saturday, got a signoff from the head instructor, and ran TT on Sunday.

We see some DSMs at Road America, including my old black Talon (Underradar) and Elvenhome, both from Wisconsin. Both should be in TT sometime this summer.

It will be interesting to see how many DSMs show up for the AMS event in Chicago. Maybe we need to start with low cost regional events like AMS to build interest. We can't expect dozens of DSMs to suddenly show up at race tracks. Gotta build interest from the bottom up, not the top down.

We've tried to get DSMs to show up at Midamerica Motorplex (near Omaha) for $150 track days, but no luck so far. Other than telling you that running a track day gives you a great woodie and puts a big smile on your face, I don't know how to get folks to the track.

Rich

I'm trying to make it to the MAM NASA event next month but I don't have a way to tow the car. If I can find a way to do that I'd love to get out to that track this year.

 

[Ludachris]

Chris, I bet you didn't see this site getting to be as large as what it is. It just proves everything is possible. Stick with it! Wait until Genoa opens then reevaluate. What your trying to do in the Rocky Mountain region is not going unnoticed.

Hopefully that's true.

If I can get my ass out to my first track event in 3 weeks I'll be a happy camper. Being a new dad is sure taking up a hell of a lot of time! Not to mention trying to do work that pays the bills so I don't lose my garage and my house...

I'll have to start finding some wrench time at night at this rate.

 

[underradar92]

Lighten up guys! This is a nationwide forum, there are 2 handsfull of road racer-types on it and you are upset at being the only DSM on track day? NOBODY was tracking these old wrecks 3 years ago.

Enjoy your advantages, and the fact that you aren't following the herd. If anyone catches on to what we can do, once we can keep our cars running, all you will hear is whining from the competition.

I never learned to bleat. (that's the noise sheep make)

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

If you've only seen one DSM, then they aren't going to create a class for them. It just doesn't seem to work that way. They don't create classes to attract new people; they create classes for the people already racing.

Also, there's one huge difference between DSMs and Foci, Miatae, and Skittles: DSMs aren't made any more. That won't help, either.

But more power to you. Don't let my tacked-on-tail donkey impression slow you down.

- Jtoby

No wonder people get annoyed at you, you are in your own little world, you know a lot about suspension but jesus read people's posts. Thats why I said it was a pipe dream, and maybe someday when there are more....


Oh and there inst a difference in spec miata, foci as you say...maybe look in the rules, only older certain year models can compete in spec miata and neon. Oh noes! What about Camaro Mustang Challenge? Yep, those classes are limiited to what? Yes, certain years and they are no longer being produced.

Why it wont happen has nothing to do with that they arent being made anymore, it is due to a lack of interest by actual DSM people to do road racing. I think it is also a lack of DSM guys to limit themselves to a few mods, that would be required in Spec. We like our big turbos and lots of different setups.

 

[Defiant]

The Datsun 510 was the most bullet-proof car I ever owned.

Some day, I'll dig up and scan my old Yellow Peril pics, with its 240Z motor. What a machine.

On one 600-mile strut-busting rally in Michigan, when the car was new, we collapsed the front (stock) springs. We replaced those with $15 rally springs and $15 rally struts from Datsun Competition.

Had you put roadster fronts in the rear?

On a winter rally, I slid off the road and broke a tie rod. We drove the car 50 miles back to the start point and retired. Next morning, we welded the tie rod together and drove it home.

Well, be fair. You breaking things isn't the same as something breaking.

We were running 600W of lights up front, and the 45A alternator couldn't handle it. The lights would go brown halfway through a rally, so we had to exchange batteries with the service car at the meal halt. We replaced it with a 70A Dodge alternator.

I'd done that. All Carello lights. I'd just up to a B210 alternator with an internal regulator. I also ran B210 electronic ignition. You could weld with it.

In one long run between service crew visits, we broke a throttle return spring,

Yup, lots of those. Best fix, and cure for the throttle body screws coming loose, was a Weber (DCOE 45? It's been awhile)

the exhaust came loose, and a battery cable came loose, all at the same time.

Oh. You had one of the lemons. Another big Datsun problem was trying to run anything other than a Genuine Datsun capacitor on the points. Strangest damned thing, and would drive a non-Datsun wrench absolutely nuts.

I remember all this because the car was so trouble free, those were the only problems.

I've been through a dozen of them, with everything from Cannon turbo kits to the Z swap. Had a New York wagon you could see the road through the floorboards, lacey strut towers and the NY plates. I'd do anything in traffic and just shrug like I didn't know better. Bought it for $300, sold for $700.
Ah, Ye Olden Dayes.

 

[Slow old poop]

Ah, Ye Olden Dayes.

They called a 510 the "poor man's BMW" because it had everything a 2002 had--Macpherson struts, independent rear suspension, and OHC engine, at a fraction of the price. Last I saw my 510, it was delivering pizzas in Dayton, Ohio. I had to sell it because it would not pass a Pennsyklvania inspection, even though it was dead perfect for the potholed streets of Pittsburgh. The African Safari front struts could handle those two-bedroom potholes with ease. It also had a 240Z 4:44 limited slip ($100 from Datsun Competition), so it could go up and down the icy hills easily. What a car!

 

[my_precious]

you guys are making me want a 510

Ok so heres the thing. I'd keep my car and road race it. With AGX's and prokits it certainly shows potential. The engine being mostly stock definately shows some speed and performance. I did 70-125 in fifth gear at like 1/4 throttle in under a mile back when it wasnt timed perfectly. I have shit old eagle gt2s on stock 1gb rims and stock brakes etc and it certainly shows potential. I've lifted the car before with my hydraulic jack to the point where 3 wheels were off the ground, so I know the chassis is very stiff. I'd love to rally it but I cant afford all the spare parts and Road racing requires a stout engine. I have yet to do a compression test but right now I couldnt afford tires anyways. Being 19 and in college I have barely any free time during the week so right now I dont even have a job. The main issue I have with the car is that it is completely unreliable. I've put probably 4 grand into it going all over the car with new parts and what not. Most I've driven it was 4 days strait before it broke again. I'm on day 3 so we will see. I have a BBQ I'm going to this weekend where I'm gonna be driving like 200 miles round trip with it. If it can hold up to that, and it passes a compression test, I might keep it. But if I cant even get the car to the point where it drives reliably how am I going to road race it? Almost every one I've ever talked to has had similar problems as me. Its either you spend a crap load into the car and even more work, or get rid of it for something that can be just as good and way more reliable. I love my car, and I'd love to go all out with it, but I've been cursed and broken in my mind so I fear beating on it or putting more money into it because I'm never going to see it back and well, it NEVER works haha. So far its been good these last 3 days but I still have some minor issues here and there. When your like me where your budget is extremely limited, and you have so many damn hours into the car just to keep it going it puts a huge kink in your moral.

On a side note, I have 3 tracks within about an hour and a half from me. Gingerman Raceway, Grattan (2 hours about), and Waterford Hills. I've raced around Grattan and Waterford in other peoples cars (riding along) but I have yet to get my car there. I've considered rebuilding a 2.0L and making it track worthy and being able to rev it out all day long while putting around 300-350 to the wheels. That would be an evo killer and WAY plenty if not too much power for me to actually get good at racing. It'd definately be a lot of car to handle. But you think about prices to get a car to be "beaten on" because thats what your doing after all....reving it to red line constantly during a 20 minute stint around the track, hard on the brakes and steering as well as the suspension and your physical wellbeing your self through g-forces, steering, mental concentration etc. I'm not saying thats bad, thats what I crave. those g forces, the challenge of driving, the thrill of chasing someone faster than you etc. My car would be good too if I had a set of good tires, some good brake pads, and if everything were reliable. I have yet to prove that it is, but for having so much invested, blowing the engine isnt exactly my priority right now.

As I always say to everyone who talks to me about DSMs. The car makes you into a mechanic and you dont have a choice about it. You like it at first but when it NEVER ENDS you hate it. You get to the point where you say "im done" and then the car works, you drive it, love it and its your favorite car again...then it breaks right as your getting used to it all over again. So its back to the drawing board. In my case, I've ran out of resources so my parents have helped me out along the way financialy. I'm lucky for them. Then I get it running and it breaks again. Well finally, I've had it running smoothly and without any major issues since sunday and even before sunday it was running good, it was just that the yoke came apart (long story) on sat. Anyways, point of this whole post is, I'd road race EVERY SINGLE DAY if I could. Its just that I dont have the budget. My cousin lives 10 minutes away from Grattan Raceway. 10 min...for me here in jackson, thats how long it takes to go to the store, or get a movie or anything. So 10 min is nothing for me (i drive over 500 miles a week usually). I could go stay there over the summer and road race every single day if I had the money. I have the car, the helmet etc. Only thing is the turbo recirc tube leaks oil and i have old tires. Get those two things fixed (and assume the car holds together) and I could be the next Louis Hamilton if you gave me enough time. Sad thing is life doesnt work that way. You beat on a car and its eventually gonna break. Maybe I have bad luck but mine seems to break alot more than it should. It gets old fast haha. Its really not about work though, but rather money. I pulled 2 alnighters trying to get the car ready for a rally cross. I didnt finish and then a couple weeks later decieded (after the car was working again) that i wasnt going to rally it. Its currently for sale cause I want to buy my friends 90 miata and actually go road racing but I havent had much luck lately. Anyhow, thats my story and my reason for "not roadracing". its not that I dont want to, its really that I cant right now.

 

[Slow old poop]

Road racing is not for the financially strapped, and DSMs are not for the mechanically challenged. A Miata would be perfect for you.

 

[underradar92]

It doesn't help that, at least with 1g turbo cars, by and large (not MY car BTW, Rich ) most of these things have seen 13-17 years of A B U S E ! and bad modification for the wannabe road racers to track down and undo, just to get a few 20 minute sessions, without drama.

 

[Slow old poop]

It doesn't help that, at least with 1g turbo cars, by and large (not MY car BTW, Rich ) most of these things have seen 13-17 years of A B U S E ! and bad modification for the wannabe road racers to track down and undo, just to get a few 20 minute sessions, without drama.

Not your car! I didn't abuse it...much. (Underradar boughtr my Talon)
In fact, that Talon reminded me very much of my old 510, because it was trouble-free, at least when I owned it. I thought seriously of turning it into a Pro Rally car, until I discovered that I couldn't throw it sideways at 100 mph like I usta when I was a young punk kid.

Rich

 

[underradar92]

No worries, Rich. There is no trouble with this car, the trouble is me, fixing what ain't broke.

It will be a truly different animal, handling wise mostly. when it does emerge from its coccoon.

 

[my_precious]

I am great at mechanics. I'm going to school for it as well. Its not that challenging heh. Its just old stuff on a performance car. It'd be like you going out and buying a 70s or 80s ferrari. Everything is gonna be old and expensive . Anyways, The miata weighs 800-1000lbs less, has smaller wheels = cheaper tires, smaller brakes = cheaper (my buddy can buy calipers and pads for liek 50 bucks). I dont know, I love the DSM but I hate it so much too haha.

I'm currently stuck between keeping the talon or getting that miata or buying a subie 2.2 imprezza and turning it into a full production class rally car. I have friends in all areas so help isnt going to be hard to find its just what is my best bet for wheel/seat time and what will I have the most fun in.

 

[Slow old poop]

I'm currently stuck between keeping the talon or getting that miata or buying a subie 2.2 imprezza and turning it into a full production class rally car. I have friends in all areas so help isnt going to be hard to find its just what is my best bet for wheel/seat time and what will I have the most fun in.

About that rallying...been there, done that. It ain't as easy as it looks.

You think racing breaks cars? You ain't seen nothing yet, especially up there in Michicgan on those logging roads, deer runs and snowmobile trails with deep sand, strut-busting potholes, rockadillos, yumps and bunyip crossings. You will get body cracks, corrosion from running 600W of lights, bent and broken suspension, cracked glass, ripped-off exhaust, bent rims, and everything not tightened down will go astray in the night. You'll hit deer, trees, boulders and bushes. If you don't get dents in your rear corners from glancing off trees, you ain't going fast enough. You'll need a bash plate under the engine, protection for the fuel and brake lines, safety wires and straps to hold things up when they come loose, straps and pins to keep the hood and hatch closed, a ton of spare parts, and a service crew. When an event is over, you'll take it to the car wash to blow 250 lb of mud off the bottom of the car, and then you have to go over every nut and bolt to tighten back up everything that came loose.

That's assuming you make it through the event, without rolling it, smashing into a tree, hitting a deer, sliding off an embankment, getting stuck in a creek crossing, breaking a tie rod, or having any of dozens of mechanical items fail. Rallying looks like a lot of fun on the videos, where they are sliding around on smooth gravel. Wait'll they get you up there in the Upper Peninsula on the logging roads.

And I haven't even mentioned the winter rallies. Can you handle 100 mph on ice on a narrow road through the trees? That is some scary shit. You ain't lived until you've gone off the road at 100 mph into deep snow that throws up a white wall over the windshield, so you can't even see what you are about to hit. The scardiest I've ever been in my relatively long life was on rallies. I mean, heart-pounding, pee in your pants, O-shit we're all going to die kind of scared.

Sheesh, compared to pro rallying, road racing is easy. It's easier on the car, and lots easier to drive. When things go wrong on a race course, there usually isn't anything to hit. You slide off into the grass or gravel pit, or take advantage of a runoff. When things go wrong on a rally, there are lots of very hard, immovable things to hit that are very close to the road. The margin of error is slim to none.

I don't think I could run a pro rally competitively again. But I can hold my own on a road course.

IMHO, you will be far better off mechanically and financially by running a Miata in HPDE events.

Rich

 

[Defiant]

I thought seriously of turning it into a Pro Rally car, until I discovered that I couldn't throw it sideways at 100 mph like I usta when I was a young punk kid.

They seem to shrink with age, don't they.

 

[Slow old poop]

They seem to shrink with age, don't they.

I prefer to think that the rally gods watched out for me when I did a lot of crazy, stupid things behind the wheel, and I don't care to push my luck any more.

Besides, it's hard to evoke the red mist of competition--which is what gives you the incentive to toss it sideways at speed-- on a publicly traveled gravel road in a stock car.

 

[stealthTT]

I prefer to think that the rally gods watched out for me when I did a lot of crazy, stupid things behind the wheel, and I don't care to push my luck any more.

Besides, it's hard to evoke the red mist of competition--which is what gives you the incentive to toss it sideways at speed-- on a publicly traveled gravel road in a stock car.

Jon (LethalVR4) says he's scared to go over the hills on Loggerhead Road because he fears you'll be coming from the other direction......sideways......at 100mph......eyes clouded with the red mist.