DSMs could rule the tracks

[Slow old poop]

Jon (LethalVR4) says he's scared to go over the hills on Loggerhead Road because he fears you'll be coming from the other direction......sideways......at 100mph......eyes clouded with the red mist.

I haven't done that since they paved Loggerhead Road last year.

 

[Slow old poop]

Sheesh, compared to pro rallying, road racing is easy.

Let me put it another way.

In drag racing, you get maybe 10 runs a day at, say 15 seconds a run. 150 seconds is 2 and a half minutes at wide open throttle (WOT). The engine barely comes up to temperature.
Chance of a DSM class win: Good
Chance of body damage: zero
Cost to enter: Tiny

In autocrossing, you get four 1-minute runs in a day. That's 4 min at WOT. On cold tires and cold brakes.
Chance of a DSM class win: Poor (I hear)
Chance of body damage: zero.
Cost to enter: Tiny

In HPDEs and road racing, you get four 20 minute sessions a day, times two days, or 2 and half HOURS at WOT. You'll wear 1/4 of your race tires, a set of pads, and 1/4 of your rotors.
Chance of a DSM class win: (VG in any of several classes)
Chance of body damage: Low
Cost to enter: $100-$200 per day

On a two-day Pro Rally with, say, 40 15-minute special stages, you get 40 x 15, or 600 minutes, or 10 HOURS at WOT. You'll use up the ENTIRE CAR. A pro rally has been defined as "a lifetime for a car." Probably the only things you won't wear out will be the tires and brakes, but you will beat everything else to death.
Chance of a DSM class win: (used to be a winner in Production GT, but the WRXes and Evos have moved in)
Chance of body damage: Very High.
Cost to enter: Outrageously, insultingly, astronomically high.

For you, still in school, I vote for the Miata in HPDEs.
For the DSM racers out there, I maintain that we have a better chance of taking home national champioships in road racing than in any other motor sport. Which is how this thread started, way back there.

 

[Defiant]

I've never had any question that rallye is top of the top. I put the drivers as skilled as any in any sport, and am undecided in comparing them to F1 and that batch. And that's not to take away from the considerable from "just" NASCAR drivers. But track just can't be compared to real, variable roads.

And if you don't want to admit they're shrinking, well, okay. Best of luck in forestalling the cataclysmic realization of that inevitablility

Old guys always want to say it's just better sense.

 

[Ludachris]

Let me put it another way.

In drag racing, you get maybe 10 runs a day at, say 15 seconds a run. 150 seconds is 2 and a half minutes at wide open throttle (WOT). The engine barely comes up to temperature.
Chance of a DSM class win: Good
Chance of body damage: zero
Cost to enter: Tiny

In autocrossing, you get four 1-minute runs in a day. That's 4 min at WOT. On cold tires and cold brakes.
Chance of a DSM class win: Poor (I hear)
Chance of body damage: zero.
Cost to enter: Tiny

In HPDEs and road racing, you get four 20 minute sessions a day, times two days, or 2 and half HOURS at WOT. You'll wear 1/4 of your race tires, a set of pads, and 1/4 of your rotors.
Chance of a DSM class win: (VG in any of several classes)
Chance of body damage: Low
Cost to enter: $100-$200 per day

On a two-day Pro Rally with, say, 40 15-minute special stages, you get 40 x 15, or 600 minutes, or 10 HOURS at WOT. You'll use up the ENTIRE CAR. A pro rally has been defined as "a lifetime for a car." Probably the only things you won't wear out will be the tires and brakes, but you will beat everything else to death.
Chance of a DSM class win: (used to be a winner in Production GT, but the WRXes and Evos have moved in)
Chance of body damage: Very High.
Cost to enter: Outrageously, insultingly, astronomically high.

For you, still in school, I vote for the Miata in HPDEs.
For the DSM racers out there, I maintain that we have a better chance of taking home national champioships in road racing than in any other motor sport. Which is how this thread started, way back there.

In a one day HPDE event I've not come close to wearing a whole set of pads, a 1/4 or my tires or my rotors. I have worn a 1/4 set of pads in one day though, but I'm sure if you have proper cooling that won't happen as fast - and I know I wasn't so smooth that day. I know many people in HPDE who try and drive smooth enough to get a whole season out of their race tires and rotors. I usually change pads after every 3-4 track days or so.

Maybe this will depend on how smooth the driver is and track conditions? Oh, and in HPDE you can't win anything because they don't allow you to race. Now if you're in Time Trials or Wheel to Wheel that's obviously different.

Anyway, I know that wasn't the point of your post but I thought I'd say something to let people know it's not always that bad on your tires/brakes.

 

[Slow old poop]

Old guys always want to say it's just better sense.

As my friends will tell you, I have absolutely no common sense. It is a wonder I've lived this long. The reason I don't push my luck as much as I used to is because I feel like a fugitive from the law of averages and the rally gods are no longer looking out for me.

As for shrinking whatnots, you sound like you are speaking from experience. When did it start for you? Does it hurt?

 

[asian312]

In a one day HPDE event I've not come close to wearing a whole set of pads, a 1/4 or my tires or my rotors. I have worn a 1/4 set of pads in one day though, but I'm sure if you have proper cooling that won't happen as fast - and I know I wasn't so smooth that day. I know many people in HPDE who try and drive smooth enough to get a whole season out of their race tires and rotors. I usually change pads after every 3-4 track days or so.

Maybe this will depend on how smooth the driver is and track conditions? Oh, and in HPDE you can't win anything because they don't allow you to race. Now if you're in Time Trials or Wheel to Wheel that's obviously different.

Anyway, I know that wasn't the point of your post but I thought I'd say something to let people know it's not always that bad on your tires/brakes.

I think Rich may have been refering to your stickier R-compounds to Hoosiers. My brother's Miata on Nitto NT-01s got about 7-8 weekends on them, but they have a fairly high wear rating (100), his car is extremly light (less punishment), and drivers a very smooth momentum line. I think a DSM on the same tires would probably see anywhere between 4-6 depending on the driving style and the weight of the car alone.

 

[Slow old poop]

Anyway, I know that wasn't the point of your post but I thought I'd say something to let people know it's not always that bad on your tires/brakes.

I think we are saying the same thing.

After a two-day TT event, my new pads will wear down about 50%, which matches your 1/4 pad use after one HPDE day. The problem with worn pads is they accentuate the pad knockback problem, so I always try to start a two-day event on new pads.

Also, the more worn down they are, the faster they wear and fade. Once a pad gets down to less than 25% depth, it can wear out in one session! I figure a new set of pads is good for three track days, then they go into the brake box as spares. My brake box has three sets of used front pads, all worn down 50-75%.

I do tend to use my brakes harder than most people, so I probably wear them down faster. As you say, most folks should be able to get four track days out of a set of race pads. Running stock pads is a bad idea. I've seen a set of el-cheapo stock pads on a 3000GT fade after TWO laps at Road America. Better to get a set of Carbotech pads, put them in before each HPDE, and put the stock pads back in afterward.

I am hoping my new fat Stoptech rotors will last the entire season. For what they cost, they better. For people running on stock rotors, it is not a problem, since replacement rotors only cost $20 at Autozone--cheaper than having them turned. All HPDEers ahould carry a set of spare rotors, just in case they warp one at the track. It's an easy fix, even trackside.

As for tires, a new set of Toyo Proxes will last an entire season. I once ran a set of Michelin Pilot street tires for an entire season on my 3000GT. OTOH, I corded a set of el-cheapo street tires in two sessions (!!!) on my stock Talon. So, you gotta be careful on your choice of tires.

I agree with you that people getting into HPDEs should not worry about excessive tire or brake wear. With the proper choice of pads and tires, they can run a season fairly cheaply.

 

[Ludachris]

I figured you were probably talking about Hoosiers. Man, if I could afford to change out Hoosiers after every other race weekend I'd be ecstatic! I'll have to stick to Toyos and Nittos for a while though.

In any event, running all the fastest wearing pads, tires and rotors still doesn't compare to the price tag of rallying, which was your original point. Absolutely no argument there. Damn I'd love to build up a rally car, maybe even just rallycross.

 

[Slow old poop]

I figured you were probably talking about Hoosiers. Man, if I could afford to change out Hoosiers after every other race weekend I'd be ecstatic! I'll have to stick to Toyos and Nittos for a while though. .

I buy used Hoosiers off race teams. I can't afford new Hoosiers either. If I get to the Nationals this year, I'll buy a set of new ones, because they are far superior to used ones.

 

[Defiant]

As for shrinking whatnots, you sound like you are speaking from experience. When did it start for you? Does it hurt?

Hurt? Good god, no. It's a relief to stop being bothered. You'll see.

 

[RichCaccese]

I'm currently part of a small crew for an SCCA northeast region American Sedan and also in the process of selecting a school (Bertil Roos or Skip most likely) for getting my SCCA license. We raced at Pocono last weekend, and recently returned from a wet 2 days at Lime Rock. The driver is a local shop owner, and becoming a good friend of mine. He lets me use the lifts and air when it gets slow at the shop. I'm good friends with a mechanic there who is also on the crew

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It's funny I come back and notice this thread here. Slow old poop, i see ITB on your avatar. I was looking thought the 07 SCCA rule book, i couldnt really find a class for AWD turbo DSMs. I only found vague listings for "2.0 4 cyl", which was in the IT classes. not specifying exactly what type of drivetrain or motor it has. Im not too familiar with NASA classes, but I'm from reading this thread I'm guessing it would be TT?

There was a pretty stock Evo 9 there at Lime Rock; it was gutted, 2 seats, stock engine and 6 pt cage. he raced in T2, running around 108.00-115.00 There was some t2 vettes absolutly dominating, we were also running with GT1s (Paul Newman making an appearance with his vette and camaro putting down 54.00's)

All weekend we were thinking about racing a 1g awd turbo. I don't think I would start tearing mine apart, it's too clean IMO. I am, however putting in 2g brakes(& powerslots, ss lines, porterfieds, motul 600) as we speak, and plan on tagging along with a car club to Pocono in a few weeks.

This thread is giving me some good motivation. I'm not in any sort of rush to get out there, I know the process is expensive (the first step, school is going to be around $3000 for the first 3 day). The owner/driver of our A Sedan gives me nothing but support, he has been racing for 20 years. He actually wants me to cage my Talon and get out there ASAP!

I'll be in the paddock someday with my 1g. Maybe I will run into some of you.

 

[Slow old poop]

This thread is giving me some good motivation. I'm not in any sort of rush to get out there, I know the process is expensive (the first step, school is going to be around $3000 for the first 3 day). The owner/driver of our A Sedan gives me nothing but support, he has been racing for 20 years. He actually wants me to cage my Talon and get out there ASAP! I'll be in the paddock someday with my 1g. Maybe I will run into some of you.

I don't know what class I am in, because I haven't gotten it dynoed yet, and NASA requires a dyno sheet on any turbo car with an uprated turbo. We'll get it dynoed soon, and then I suspect I will be in TTA, TTU or TTS. At Iowa Speedway, they stuck me in TTR (the highest class). Depending on mods, DSMs run anywhere from TTG to TTR.

I'll give you the same advice I give everybody else, whether they ask for it or not.

1. The only mods you should make to your DSM are tires and brakes. Race tires (Toyo Prox 235x17 mounted on Cobra SVT 9-in rims--about $150 for a tire, $100 for a rim, or about $1,000) because street tires get hot and slippery, and never recover. Brakes: Stock rotors and Carbotech Panther Plus pads. Stock rotors are dirt cheap, and you can use Carbotechs around town. In fact, with Toyos and Carbotechs, you can drive back and forth to the track.

2. Any further mods to your car should only be to ensure reliability, not increase performance. You don't need 20 psi boost just yet. If you already have a 500 hp DSM, turn down the boost.

3. Start with NASA in HPDE1 (the beginner group), ask for and get an instructor at each event, and work your way up to HPDE4, which is open passing. In HPDE4, you also run with TT cars, so you can get an excellent idea of what is in the various classes in your region, and how your car compares. Spend all your disposable money on making the car more reliable and getting seat time. It should take you one full season to work up from HPDE1 to HPDE4. If you are good, you will get to HPDE4 in four events, and then you'll be running door-to-door with TT cars. One DSM showed up at Iowa Speedway three weeks ago, ran HPDE3 (because he was an experienced rally driver) on Saturday, took a qualification run with the chief instructor, and was allowed into TT on Sunday--so it can happen in one event!) Although HPDE4 and TT is technically not a race group, open passing means you get all the experience of door-to-door racing without the body damage.

4. After a while, make a decision on what class you want to compete in, and how much you want to spend on the car. Your car is competitive in every NASA TT class, from bone stock to TTR, depending on what you do to it ($$) In NASA, to run TT, you do not need a cage or even a roll bar. You only need the race stuff when you get into the Production race classes. For you, that probably is two years away (one year in HPDE, one year in TT, then the race group). My experience, and that of our hero, Greg Colliler, is that it takes at least two years to properly sort a DSM race car. So, by the time you get the car set up the way you like it and it's reasonably reliable, you'll be ready to go racing, bang doors, and trade paint in the race groups.

5. You can get perfectly adequate instruction at NASA , Porsche or BMW club HPDEs. You don't need to spend $3000 on a pro course. Get a year of seat time first, then consider a pro course. I think you'll get more value from it then. An SCCA license is useless. NASA does not recognize it, and the SCCA instruction (or so I hear) is second rate. A pro school is much better, of course, but you'll be spending $3,000 to learn the basic rules of driving:
o Always brake in a straight line before the corner
o Brake properly
o Do not use the engine to slow down (brake pads are less expensive than engines)
o Learn how to late-apex a corner
o Brake, turn in, ease down on the throttle, accelerate across the apex, drift out to the corner exit.
Any club instructor can teach you that. What you'll need, a year from now, is to learn the AWD line, and only a few instructors can teach that.

By the bye, you say you crew for an American Sedan car. NASA has a similar class (American Iron) and some cars run both SCCA and NASA. Although I don't run in that class, it may interest you to know that my lil ol 1G Eclipse would have qualified 3rd at Iowa Speedway in American Iron. I was two seconds off their pole time.

 

[Slow old poop]

All weekend we were thinking about racing a 1g awd turbo. I don't think I would start tearing mine apart, it's too clean IMO. I am, however putting in 2g brakes(& powerslots, ss lines, porterfieds, motul 600) as we speak, and plan on tagging along with a car club to Pocono in a few weeks.

EEEK! I was re-reading your post, and saw this: Omigawd, not Powerslots! ANYTHING but Powerslots! Those are strictly for showing off on the boulevard, not for competition. I broke two of those muthas at the hub on my 3000GT (I mean BROKE, as in they broke into two pieces). They are strictly decorative.

Better you should run stock rotors. At $20 each, you can carry spares. Keep the PowerSlops around to make the car look pretty and impress the rubes, but don't race on them.

Rich

 

[RichCaccese]

I don't know what class I am in, because I haven't gotten it dynoed yet, and NASA requires a dyno sheet on any turbo car with an uprated turbo. We'll get it dynoed soon, and then I suspect I will be in TTA, TTU or TTS. At Iowa Speedway, they stuck me in TTR (the highest class). Depending on mods, DSMs run anywhere from TTG to TTR.

I'll give you the same advice I give everybody else, whether they ask for it or not.

1. The only mods you should make to your DSM are tires and brakes. Race tires (Toyo Prox 235x17 mounted on Cobra SVT 9-in rims--about $150 for a tire, $100 for a rim, or about $1,000) because street tires get hot and slippery, and never recover. Brakes: Stock rotors and Carbotech Panther Plus pads. Stock rotors are dirt cheap, and you can use Carbotechs around town. In fact, with Toyos and Carbotechs, you can drive back and forth to the track.

um.... too late! just installed today, 3000gt SL 2 pistons, powerslots, ss lines, porterfield rs4s. when i first got the car, almost 2 years ago i installed powerslots, they have been performing great, even surviving a severly overheated piston. i also found them for $25 on ebay, $25!!!

now that i've upgraded the brakes, i guess i am SOL with the lower classes, huh?

your advice is great, i am certainly going to look into local (nyc area) NASA events. i've heard that the SCCA driving instruction requires a spec'd car. a friend of mine runs a ITE 944 turbo, mostly stock with a 6 pt cage. he offered to rent the car to me. i would feel very uncomfortable doing that. one, i've never driven a 944, its my friends car and i would be extremely cautious. driving my talon is second nature, heel toe at speed, trying to perfect my rev-matching, the local streets "race line" etc. i'm very familiar with the handling.

NASA sounds like its perfect for me. thanks again Rich.

 

[Slow old poop]

um.... too late! just installed today, 3000gt SL 2 pistons, powerslots, ss lines, porterfield rs4s. when i first got the car, almost 2 years ago i installed powerslots, they have been performing great, even surviving a severly overheated piston. i also found them for $25 on ebay, $25!!! now that i've upgraded the brakes, i guess i am SOL with the lower classes, huh? NASA sounds like its perfect for me. thanks again Rich.

Maybe they improved the Powerslops. For a while there, Powerslops were breaking all over the place. Could have been a bad batch from their supplier.

In any case, NASA classes you according to a points system (read the CCR), but only when you actually get into TT. You can run HPDE no problem, take all the instruction you want, and not worry about a class right away. I haven't memorized the CCR, but I don't think you've accumulated the 15 points it takes to move up from the base class.

You can find the rules at:
The Revised 2007 TT Rules (v. 4.5 1-21-07) and the revised car classification forms have now been posted http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/Time-Trial-Rules.pdf
http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/Time-Trial-Classification-form.pdf
http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/Time-Trial-Classification-form-SUR.pdf

If you have that much experience with the car, you could be in TT real fast--like maybe within two events. Good luck! The furtherest East we'll get this season probably will be Mid Ohio, hopefully for the nationals.

If you can borrow a truck and trailer, try to make the NASA event at Road America. It is worth the tow to run on the greatest track in America.

 

[jtmcinder]

Even if Powerslots don't break anymore, they still use a terrible internal design. The vents don't seem to pump any air at all. They are straight-out vents, like stock.

- Jtoby

 

[Slow old poop]

Even if Powerslots don't break anymore, they still use a terrible internal design. The vents don't seem to pump any air at all. They are straight-out vents, like stock.

- Jtoby

Here's what they look like when usd hard on a race track.

I broke two of them this way before abandoning them.

 

[RichCaccese]

Rich, if the HPDE1 is booked up (for pocono june 2nd) already, should I show up anyway and see it there is any no-shows? I'm just going by what the NASA NE website is showing for events.
the Glen is comming up too, I've always wanted to go there. I think we are going there in mid July for SCCA. I will definitelybe signing up for as many HPDE's as i can this summer. thanks again!

 

[Slow old poop]

Rich, if the HPDE1 is booked up (for pocono june 2nd) already, should I show up anyway and see it there is any no-shows? I'm just going by what the NASA NE website is showing for events.
the Glen is comming up too, I've always wanted to go there. I think we are going there in mid July for SCCA. I will definitelybe signing up for as many HPDE's as i can this summer. thanks again!

Enter HPDE2. It's not sold out yet. Fudge a little on your entry form about running some other HPDEs. They run HPDE1, 2 and 3 together, so it's no big deal.

Rich

 

[Elvenhome21]

i am wondering if a person could try a cryo treatment to the powerslots. Or get a stress relieve process done. I am not saying to go out and buy a set to try but if you already bought them it wouldn't hurt to mess around with them.

 

[Slow old poop]

i am wondering if a person could try a cryo treatment to the powerslots. Or get a stress relieve process done. I am not saying to go out and buy a set to try but if you already bought them it wouldn't hurt to mess around with them.

It didn't help with the Powerslots. We have a cryo shop here in Cedar Rapids, and they do rotors for $20. I still broke both of them at the hub.

OTOH, I am tough on my brakes. Here's a cryoed Porterfield rotor off my 3000GT:

 

[jtmcinder]

Floating or fixed calipers?

- Jtoby

ps. please check your PMs

 

[Slow old poop]

Floating or fixed calipers?

- Jtoby

ps. please check your PMs

The 3000GT had Porsche Big Red calipers with 13.5 in rotors. I eventually went to two-piece Coleman rotors.

The DSM has StopTechs, but the calipers have been widened with a 15mm spacer to permit a larger rotor. (Normal StopTechs don't work on a AWD DSM)

Both calipers are 4-piston fixed.

 

[Slow old poop]

ps. please check your PMs

I responded already.

 

[RichCaccese]

Enter HPDE2. It's not sold out yet. Fudge a little on your entry form about running some other HPDEs. They run HPDE1, 2 and 3 together, so it's no big deal.

Rich

i know what you're saying, but i really don't know enough about HPDE classes in other clubs or sanctions to execute a proper fudging. can you give me some additional info? thanks again!