New NASA Rule: Stop those turbos!

[Slow old poop]

Anyone contemplating running NASA events needs to follow this thread:

http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=12027&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Essentially, they are going to require any turbo car with an upgraded turbo to submit a dyno sheet. I am not sure what they are going to do with the dyno sheets, but they could come up with some sort of power/weight ratio. Nobody seems to know. The new rules come out November 30, and then we'll know.

Since I have an upgraded turbo (20G), I am concerned. I can barely hold my own in TTB right now, so anything that penalizes me or forces me back to a stock turbo would be devastating.

It may be too early for me to start worrying about the rule until we see what it says, but anybody out there thinking of a turbo upgrade may want to put it off for a while.

Rich

 

[mavisky]

I'm guessing this is in regards to the TTR classing of cars with 550+hp. It'd be really easy for a TTU car to come in like a Supra and at low boost make less than that but with a dual stage ebc they could tap into way more for the long straights at a place like Road Atlanta or Road America.

 

[Greg Collier]

Rich,

The dyno numbers have always been a reality in trying to keep a level playing field. All of the V8 race classes require dyno sheets to compete. There is even an engine tear down rule for the top three finishers in all race classes at the end of the year. Racing ain't cheap.

The big concern is going to be people increasing their boost. How this will be policed is my question.

If Greg can make these classes work it'll be revolutionary, it's never been done on such a large scale. I can't imagine the amount of protests that will be filed in the beginning. If someone could come up with a simple inexpensive way of verifying horsepower it would absolutely save the day! Of course everybody would have to agree on it...

 

[Slow old poop]

Rich,

If Greg can make these classes work it'll be revolutionary, it's never been done on such a large scale. I can't imagine the amount of protests that will be filed in the beginning. If someone could come up with a simple inexpensive way of verifying horsepower it would absolutely save the day! Of course everybody would have to agree on it...

The GPS is the simplest, easiest way, and it seems to be foolproof. AMS said they dynoed at 490 hp and NASA's GPS system calculated them at 492. I'm not scared of what the dyno will say -- I'm worried about what NASA will do with those dyno numbers. I'm only at 300-325 hp right now and still running heavy, so I am fairly safe (I hope). But I don't want to be kicked up into TTA or TTU.

Rich

 

[Zero Bar]

I'm glad I'm naturally aspirated!! TTD for me. It sucks they continually pick on the turbo cars like this.

 

[eclipse2via]

Well that pretty much precludes my participation for at least the 07 season. I guess the concept of tuning without a dyno is lost on them. If they ruled everyone should dyno it may be more fair but I still wouldn't be able to run.

 

[stealthTT]

I'm working on keeping it fair by posting with an open mind and clear facts. Greg Greenbaum the national time trial director seems to be listening.
-------
He did say that he'd consider any mods to attain that hp level would be exempt for further points assessment:

Quote: "Actually, once a car is classed based on it's actual dyno numbers and weight, there are no points assigned for engine or weight reduction mods. The car must be re-assessed if additional mods are made, but once someone is at the point of modifying a car with upgraded turbo (or added turbo/supercharger for that matter), we just look at the final product for real power values--no points for those mods. "

So in my interpretation if I need timing / fuel controllers, intercoolers, piping, exhaust, water injection, etc. to hit that hp, then I don't have to take more points for them. I hope that makes it into the rules otherwise most turbo cars will end up seriously outclassed after total point assessment.
-------
They question the need to replace the turbo(s). They don't understand the heat and efficiency problems of stock turbos. They also think that 2 turbos are better than one for performance. WTF I had to explain the concept of twin turbos that are parallel not sequential. That's why I'm posting over there. They don't know every car and are trying to make blanket rules. They need the information from us for it to end up fair. Don't cry later because you didn't speak up now.
-------
I want them to require dyno proof on the NA cars too. They can bore, stroke, and raise compression just as easy as we can add boost. However, their mods are very hidden inside the block. We just want it equal. There is also the cost and time of dyno-ing the vehicle. They think everyong tunes on a dyno. But anyway, If turbos have to be dyno'ed then NA's should too.
-------
I'm also pressing spot-checks and Top 3 winner testing. You've got to keep these guys honest. There are some very serious competitors out there. If someone thinks they could be checked and stripped of points for being disqualified, they'll think twice about cheating.
-------
They say they can check the car with GPS too. I'm not sure how all the math works to find hp with just acceleration and weight. Doesn't gearing come into play????
-------
Share your thoughts and post over there. As I said before, they don't know every car and are trying to make blanket rules. They need the information from us for it to end up fair. Don't cry later because you didn't speak up now. Right now it looks like SlowOldPoop and I are a couple of whiners that want to keep it unfair. NASA is not SCCA. NASA cares what members and prospective members want. Speak up or suffer the consequences!

 

[asian312]

Hmm...this is a very interesting turn of events, but with any rules change there are good and bad depending on your perspective. When I first decided that I wanted to do TT I basically sat down and played with the calculator. Certain classes I could see being very competitive, others were just not possible due to the required points assesed to supporting mods for larger setups. So essentailly I came up with TTE (stock class) with lots of points in wheels (255 with R-compounds), suspension and brake pads. Only mods to the engine/drivetrain were intake, catback, and clutch/flywheel (already in the car). TTD was possible with a small turbo upgrade and using some DSM black magic to maintain comforatble power levels at 14-16 psi (BOV is free, IC pipe is included in points for intake, fuel pump is free upgrade using stock ECU maps, etc.). From there though its a quick jump to TTB with the prementioned points for handling and a larger turbo setup.

I actually kinda like the system with setting the base class on power to weight ratio. For the smaller setups it means I could potentially run a 14b, at 12-14 psi, with all the supporting mods including DSM link, and still stay in TTE or TTD. My interest wouldn't be in increasing my peak power/torque, but making the relativly stock power hold to redline. You have to admit that for 7-28 points for turbo upgrades and supporting mods, we have an infinite amount of power levels in between. If your on the low side then you feel cheated for the 7 points for a turbo upgrade. However if for 28 points I jump power from 220 to say 500, its a bargin. What's going to really affect alot of people are the changes to points for tires. Even a novice as myself noticed the huge differece between the 215s and 255s on the track.

Slow and Stealth have some great points being made. To completely level the field all cars should be dynoed and then classified from there. However I think just applying that rule to just turbo cars might give us a one up. For instance if that S2000 was classified on PTW ratio, it may not be based as high as TTB next year. Instead their base case is based on a stock package. For us our base class is determined only by PTW, we technically could use that to our advantage. Guess we'll have to see how the rules turn out

 

[drivemusicnow]

actually the weight thing could work out advantageous. The turbo/dyno thing is a PITA.

You could weight the car with max ballast, and basically put the ballast wherever you want. this would allow you to lighten the heck out of the front of the car, and add the weight back on the rear, so you're not penalized, and the car actually becomes a little more balanced.

Dyno sheets would be tricky. I think the GPS system is pretty expensive to operate as well (or at least thats what they seem to be saying) however that is an expense to NASA rather than to the racer. The thing that concerns me the most is that you can be DNF'd if they "find" that you are running a higher HP than your dyno sheet states. Everyone knows that a car can run fairly different day to day, not to mention on race fuel, with/without boost leaks etc. I don't know of any turbo car that is raced that doesn't fluctuate power rather radically during the season at some point. (whether this is due to parts failure, tuning, modification, or act of God)

Since the earilest days of racing, winning has been about using the rules to your advantage... I think we are going to need a DSMer brainstorming session after the rules are written to determine how best to take advantage of any loopholes they've given us.

 

[Slow old poop]

. I think we are going to need a DSMer brainstorming session after the rules are written to determine how best to take advantage of any loopholes they've given us.

Greg Greenbaum's latest post on the NASA forum seems to indicate some moderation. We may come out of this OK yet. But you are absolutely correct: we need a brainstorming session to analyze the rules after they get posted.

Rich

 

[Evan K.]

I read the concerns posted about AWD dyno's. Why not use a viscous coupling eliminator (VCE) and dyno in FWD mode?

 

[Defiant]

Essentially, they are going to require any turbo car with an upgraded turbo to submit a dyno sheet.

Pff. Put a restrictor in the intake, or over the inlet, and do a dyno. Racing has always been about an "unfair" advantage.

Long live Smokey Yunick!

 

[Slow old poop]

I read the concerns posted about AWD dyno's. Why not use a viscous coupling eliminator (VCE) and dyno in FWD mode?

Fer gawd's sake, don't tell them we can do that!

Rich

 

[Slow old poop]

Pff. Put a restrictor in the intake, or over the inlet, and do a dyno. Racing has always been about an "unfair" advantage. Long live Smokey Yunick!

No fair cheating. We can beat them straight up.

If they go to a 10.0 hp/wt ratio in TTB, I'd be happy. It means I can stop modding my motor (I am about 300 hp and about 3000 lb now) and work on tires, brakes and suspension. I get a little nervous trying to extract ever more hp out of a motor that can fail very expensively.

Rich

 

[mavisky]

Means I'll have to dial my car back to about 260-250hp though

 

[stealthTT]

I read the concerns posted about AWD dyno's. Why not use a viscous coupling eliminator (VCE) and dyno in FWD mode?

I think that's only possible on the DSM's, right? The 3/Ss, Audis, Subarus, etc. can't do that. Besides the VCE provides a somewhat inflated number because of no drivetrain losses through the transfer case and rear driveshaft.

Anyway, it sounds like they need to corral some crazy cars in California with new rules for turbos. As I've seen with my own eyes high hp from upgraded turbos requires points for engine modifications, fuel/timing controllers, intercoolers, etc. Taking the points for those mods bumps you up in classes. That's how it seems to work on Mitsus. We'll see if they listened to our reasoning when the new CCR comes out.

 

[Evan K.]

Fer gawd's sake, don't tell them we can do that!

Rich

You don't see me posting there do you?

I only suggest it as an option in case you get stuck with the necessity.

I have never been out with NASA. I would like to go out this coming year. The only problem is my car would be one of those California cars that needs to be corraled

 

[Evan K.]

I think that's only possible on the DSM's, right? The 3/Ss, Audis, Subarus, etc. can't do that. Besides the VCE provides a somewhat inflated number because of no drivetrain losses through the transfer case and rear driveshaft.

Anyway, it sounds like they need to corral some crazy cars in California with new rules for turbos. As I've seen with my own eyes high hp from upgraded turbos requires points for engine modifications, fuel/timing controllers, intercoolers, etc. Taking the points for those mods bumps you up in classes. That's how it seems to work on Mitsus. We'll see if they listened to our reasoning when the new CCR comes out.

I have no idea, but i assume so. The last German car I had had 4 opposing cylinders so...

As for the inflated numbers it shouldn't be any different than the numbers I or someone like Greg would put down being that our cars are FWD. I would think that a properly calibrated AWD dyno would account for that. I however am juist starting to get into the AWD stuff with my '91 GSX.

 

[Defiant]

No fair cheating. We can beat them straight up.

What kind of a sissy word is "fair"?

You're in a DSM. You're already cheating.

 

[drivemusicnow]

What kind of a sissy word is "fair"?

You're in a DSM. You're already cheating.

Cheating death? as in... not having the car blow up?


I'm actually a bit concerned that they'll start going to an intake restrictor deal. I think this would be okay in the fact that you could always take it out and run open track, or on the street in your "full power" mode, however it could hamper on track performance quite significantly. The advantage to this, is that I believe it gives you a more linear power response which could be beneficial.

 

[stealthTT]

Some more Greg Greenbaum leaks on the rule changes for PT and TT:

http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=11856
"There will be changes to both sets of rules, as well as to new classes above TTA/PTA and below SU. Some of the more common mods will be made free. Some of the tire mods will cost more points. Loopholes on aftermarket heads and turbos will be closed. There are some (not many) cars slated to be moved up in base class. We hope to have things ready by the end of November."

Points of interest to me
1) Two new classes between TTA and TTU! This was very much needed in my opinion. I had a heck of time trying to figure out how to make my Stealth competitive in the current classes. If I bumped up a class to get proper brakes, suspension and tires, I might as well watch from the stands because I can't outspend those guys.

2) Tire mods changes. It might hurt me if I get 275's, but hopefully it'll keep guys from outspending me like I witnessed this season. I'd like to see a bigger difference between budget RA-1's and the expensive real racing slicks like Hoosiers.

3) Rich might get his wish for the S2000's to get bumped a class.

 

[Slow old poop]

Some more Greg Greenbaum leaks on the rule changes for PT and TT:

Points of interest to me
1) Two new classes between TTA and TTU! This was very much needed in my opinion. I had a heck of time trying to figure out how to make my Stealth competitive in the current classes. If I bumped up a class to get proper brakes, suspension and tires, I might as well watch from the stands because I can't outspend those guys.

You have a long way to go before you need to worry about classes. First, you have to run some HPDEs. NASA will start you in HPDE1, then bump you up to 2, 3, and 4, and then a check ride from 4 to get into TT. So you are looking at two or maybe three weekend events before you run your first TT. That could take much of the season. I'd concentrate on making the car safe and reliable instead of worrying about mods just yet, and then run the car in whatever TT class it fits at that point. Worry about classes for the 2008 season. Rules might change again at that point, too. You need seat time more than you need mods.

2) Tire mods changes. It might hurt me if I get 275's, but hopefully it'll keep guys from outspending me like I witnessed this season. I'd like to see a bigger difference between budget RA-1's and the expensive real racing slicks like Hoosiers.

Once again, you need a tire that will last you your first season. Can't beat RA1s for price and wear. One set of Toyo 255s will get you through the entire season.

3) Rich might get his wish for the S2000's to get bumped a class.

Depending on what classes and rules they come up with, I might move up to TTA or one of the newer classes. Ya never know. I can run with most of the TTA and some of the TTU cars now. Maybe by adding Hoosiers and aero, I might be able to run with all of them.

I'd also like to run in at least one race group before I pull the pin. I'm not sure where I fit into the race groups, though. I'd hate to have to run against Greg.

Rich

 

[stealthTT]

You have a long way to go before you need to worry about classes. First, you have to run some HPDEs.

---Snip---

Rich

The reason I'm concerned is because I want a place to play when I do finish the HPDE's. If I'm not going to have snowball's chance in hell, then I'll just run HPDE's with the local groups.

1) The NASA HPDE's are more expensive than local HPDE's although you do get instruction...hmmm, not such a good reason.

2) I'll be busy enough keeping your car going at the NASA events. Where will I find time to race, keep my car going, and go to class/download session?

3) Few others are speaking up on the NASA board with actual facts, so I'm carrying the torch for you guys.

So I think I have a good reason(s) for watching and partaking in the development of new rules and classes. If you don't speak up at the opportune time, you can't cry later. C'est la vie is for the weak.

 

[Slow old poop]

The reason I'm concerned is because I want a place to play when I do finish the HPDE's. If I'm not going to have snowball's chance in hell, then I'll just run HPDE's with the local groups.

I understand that, but we don't even know what the rules are yet.

1) The NASA HPDE's are more expensive than local HPDE's although you do get instruction...hmmm, not such a good reason.

You gotta run some HPDEs to get seat time. NASA will count all the one-day events at MAM when they evaluate you. If you recall, I got into TT at my first NASA event via a check ride. Maybe you can, too.

Yes, NASA is a bit more expensive, considering track time v. dollars. The only reason to run NASA HPDEs is to show them you can move up to TT and get your check ride. I'm not sure how many events you'll have to run to get that check ride.

As for expense, your problem is that you are spoiled by all the one-day events for $100 to $150 that we've run. Alas, almost all two-day events--Porsche club, BMW club, Speedseekers, NASA, etc-- are in the $400 range.

2) I'll be busy enough keeping your car going at the NASA events. Where will I find time to race, keep my car going, and go to class/download session?

I would hope that you will have made my car more reliable by then. You didn't have much to do at Road America, n'est ce pas? We are getting there. Since you have a Stealth, I guess we'll be working on YOUR car from now on.

3) Few others are speaking up on the NASA board with actual facts, so I'm carrying the torch for you guys.

Hmmm... wonder why that is? I bet there are very few actual DSMs and 3000GTs running NASA. Lotsa talk, no action out there. Maybe we'll get more out next year.

So I think I have a good reason(s) for watching and partaking in the development of new rules and classes. If you don't speak up at the opportune time, you can't cry later. C'est la vie is for the weak.

Oui, d'accord. (Yes, I agree)

By speaking up and making noise, I think we've (you and me, mostly) have accomplished a lot in the past few weeks:

1. Made NASA aware that they can cause real problems for turbo cars (I bitched and you explained the technical difficulties)
2. Made NASA aware that there are DSMs and 3000GTs ready to run next year (and you are one of them)
3. Made them aware of their goofy national championship system
4. Exposed the class-jumping cherry-licking baloney, where a TTC car can suddenly jump to TTB to snatch a class win (bet that doesn't happen again)

We are probably on their shit list as being troublemakers, but at least they know Willy Boy is Here.

Rich

 

[asian312]

Nah you two are doing too good of a job