2G Crank, no start. Backfiring

[Dryppical]

I’ve been trying to get this 1997 Eclipse GSX running for the past few months and I’ve been correcting a lot of things the previous owner did.

Currently cranks but won’t start. Backfiring out the exhaust. The engine is out of a 95 eclipse with 65k miles and so is the ECU. I have the firing order set for 95-96. What am I missing? Has fuel and spark. Crank it and it will constantly backfire as long you crank it. Is the timing set correctly? If it were to be rotated 1 tooth, it should line up right? Previous owner set it.

They also did a cometic head gasket so I assume compression is good, but I’ll double check it later

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[pauleyman]

I can't see diddly in that pic. The marks are only relative to the crank. Is the crank lined up?

 

[Dryppical]

I looked at a video online of someone setting timing and the dowel pins are supposed to both be facing up. Well one of them is facing down while the other is facing up. Kind of hard to get a picture of it. I suppose I have to do completely redo the timing. Previous owner did a gates timing belt when he put the engine in. It never ends does it?

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What do I have to do in order to fix this? Not only is it upside down, the gear is also on backwards. Do I need to pull the engine? Is there a guide somewhere I can use?

 

[Sirius1995]

looks and sounds like you're a tooth off on timing, that causes no crank backfire, just set the timing again and make sure all the idlers and tensioner is in good condition and if you don't have BS-delete done, good time to change that belt too

 

[steve]

looks and sounds like you're a tooth off on timing

With one cam up and the other down it's far more than one tooth off.

 

[Sirius1995]

With one cam up and the other down it's far more than one tooth off.

Looks like 1 tooth to me pretty clearly, but it needs to be corrected asap

 

[DSMPT]

One tooth off doesn't cause this. I am not sure why this happened but I hope OP hasn't bent any valves.
Assuming OP has set the crank timing mark and took the pic, the exhaust valve timing is 180 degree off which means the exhaust cam is about 2 strokes/24 teeth off.

 

[pauleyman]

Explain the gear on backwards. I don't see it. This is a major screw up to be sure. Get the crank away from tdc 20 or 30 degrees to get all pistons away from valves. Reset cams and hope for the best. I would say a full leakdown test is in order once it's timed right.

 

[Dryppical]

Just to clear up some things. I was not the one who set timing. The guy I bought it from did everything with his “dsm friend”. I bought it non running/driving. He said it ran but didn’t drive. Couldn’t see if it ran because the battery was dead and didn’t have jumper cables. Big mistake. I took his word and that was that.

I said the gears on the left cam is on backwards because the timing marks on the gears (not timing itself) is currently 1 tooth off how it sits. The dowels are opposite of each other. One up, one down: If I were to reset timing, the left cam gear timing mark would face the front of the engine while the right cam gear would be in the correct position. This is a very unfortunate event and I really hope nothing got hurt.

Should have done a better inspection and some more research. You live and you learn

 

[pauleyman]

Just to clear up some things. I was not the one who set timing. The guy I bought it from did everything with his “dsm friend”. I bought it non running/driving. He said it ran but didn’t drive. Couldn’t see if it ran because the battery was dead and didn’t have jumper cables. Big mistake. I took his word and that was that.

I said the gears on the left cam is on backwards because the timing marks on the gears (not timing itself) is currently 1 tooth off how it sits. The dowels are opposite of each other. One up, one down: If I were to reset timing, the left cam gear timing mark would face the front of the engine while the right cam gear would be in the correct position. This is a very unfortunate event and I really hope nothing got hurt.

Should have done a better inspection and some more research. You live and you learn

There are marks on both sides of the gear. That gear is not on backwards. It is upside down as you had mentioned. You will not know what's what until you take off all the covers and fix it. If you're lining up tdc with the harmonic balancer don't. Do not trust it. Trust the crank gear.

 

[Dryppical]

Ahh, I see. I was unaware that there was marks in both sides of the gears. Thank you and thanks to everyone else that has helped. Maybe tomorrow I will have the motivation to fix it. Going to have to watch a couple YouTube videos and read up on it

 

[DSMPT]

Do I need to pull the engine? Is there a guide somewhere I can use?

Just to clear up some things. I was not the one who set timing. The guy I bought it from did everything with his “dsm friend”. I bought it non running/driving. He said it ran but didn’t drive. Couldn’t see if it ran because the battery was dead and didn’t have jumper cables. Big mistake. I took his word and that was that.

I said the gears on the left cam is on backwards because the timing marks on the gears (not timing itself) is currently 1 tooth off how it sits. The dowels are opposite of each other. One up, one down: If I were to reset timing, the left cam gear timing mark would face the front of the engine while the right cam gear would be in the correct position. This is a very unfortunate event and I really hope nothing got hurt.

Should have done a better inspection and some more research. You live and you learn

Redoing the timing and leakdown test can be done without pulling the engine.
Usually you don't need to remove the cams to set the timing or run a leakdown test, but in your case you should also remove the cams since you may bend some valves if you rotate the cams individually without the belt. (Maybe it would be easier for you if you run the leakdown test while the cams are off)
Like Paul told you that run a leakdown test and make sure if no valves are bent first. And then if you see no damage on valves, redo the timing properly.

P.S. When you upload a pic of timing marks on cam gears to ask someone to check, you also have to upload a pic or at least mentioned about the crank/piston position (there is one more timing mark on crank plate), otherwise no body would be able to tell you how much the valve timing is off. This is what Paul asked you in post #2.

 

[steve]

Going to have to watch a couple YouTube videos and read up on it

Reference this as you watch.

Timing Belt VFAQ

 

[Dryppical]

I was no longer around the car so I have been unable to get a picture of the crank position, haven’t been very motivated to even think about resetting the timing

 

[Dryppical]

I have a 1997 Eclipse GSX that I’ve been working on for the past 6 months, working out previous owners mistakes. Today was a startup test and it will start, rev up to about 1,000rpms, then die. It will stay alive if I give it gas. I have a known good battery currently in it.

Current mods:
FMIC, 16g turbo, unknown upgraded fuel pump (it’s very loud) + fuel pump rewire, Greddy BOV (recirculated), Gates timing belt, K&N air filter, 3” downpipe, 3” exhaust, Wideband O2, DSMLink (but don’t get too excited about this, it won’t connect. I’ve installed the software not once but twice. Installed the drivers twice. Restarted computer, connected USB after key is on and before key is on. Keep getting “No response received”. Going to try a different computer and possibly a cable if a 1g DSMLink v3 cable works with 2g Eclipse DSMLink v3) also going to plug in a code reader and see if it connects.

Now some things to note:
Wideband O2 is setup currently to simulate narrowband as it’s in front O2 slot. Unfortunately can’t finish setting it up because of DSMLink issues, could this be part of the problem? I cut and spliced the original O2 sensor for heater circuit. I could reconnect it and put that one in for now until I get this figured out. (I realize I can just delete the code with DSMLink instead of splicing the wire)

The temp sensor spade is broken off also unknown if it works. I heard the ECU looks at this to tell the engine how much fuel or air or something to give it. (I have a new one coming in)

The oil pressure sending unit is bad. The needle pegs upon turning the key (I have a new one coming in)
The oil pressure switch has a broken spade and also in unknown condition (I have a new one coming in)
The car currently has an open downpipe as I need to weld some hangars on the exhaust to mount it underneath the car. I’m trying to get the car to at least drive to get it into the garage to weld said hangars on and get it mounted. (Not super far but I really don’t want to push/tow it the distance because I’m lazy. Also have new rear o2 sensor coming in but is useless until I get the exhaust on)

I currently have the stock fuel pressure regulator and with this unknown pump, I’m pretty sure it is overloading this fuel pressure regulator (I have a AFPR coming in, along with gauge and install kit)

The car probably has at least 2 vacuum leaks as the “P, E and A” nipples on the intake manifold, 2 of the nipples are nonexistent so I can’t plug it with a cap. (Another reason I want to get this car to drive to the garage to use the welder and plug the holes but could be part of the problem. Like I said not super far)

The fuel level sender is bad and reads empty ( I have a new one but have yet to install it. I’m pretty sure it’s irrelevant to this problem though)

The fuel filter is brand new. The gas in it is probably at least a year and a half old. I put 3 gallons of fresh premium in it but that’s it. No clue how much is in tank because sender is bad. (Will replace soon)

New spark plugs by previous owner.
Emissions are deleted.
Fresh oil change with filter.
I have fresh coolant in there but can’t fill it completely as it won’t idle and temp sensor is broke

I believe I covered everything I got so far. Any ideas of things to look at would be greatly appreciated before I lose my mind. I would post a log but DSMLink doesn’t want to connect but if a different cable or computer does the trick, I will post a log but until then, this is all I got.

 

[pauleyman]

I don't know why you're trying with so much stuff broken. Fix it first. Coolant sender and vac leaks for sure. Could easily pump out old gas also and start with 100% fresh. The O2 won't matter at cold startup.

 

[Dryppical]

Well you see, I found out they were broken after when my gauge pegged and I started looking at other forums and looking stuff over.

Also just replaced all fluids so was going to check/fill ATF fluid. I’m really trying my best out here.

Something just dawned upon me and I realize I am a moron and so is the previous owner. When I had the firing order for 95/96 as the engine and ECU is from a 95. It wouldn’t run. Then I remembered how the previous owner had it routed and he must have swapped the coils and flipped them to have it route a bit nicer so I routed it the same way and it would run but not great as I stated above.

Yeah, so how it’s currently routed, the firing order is wrong. It's enough to run off 2 cylinders but not all 4. 95/96 firing order is 3214 from left to right. It’s currently routed 4321 as he swapped the coils around and flipped them but didn’t account for 2 of the wires to be swapped. So hypothetically it should be 4123.

I will check back in on this thread once I replace all my parts on the way and swap the firing order like I think it should be. I’ll post pictures of a little drawing to help explain so everyone knows I’m an idiot .

First is normal firing order. 2nd is how it’s currently routed how previous owner had it. 3rd one is how it should be according to my calculations

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[Dryppical]

Alright guys. I finally got back around to working on my car. Car still won’t idle and runs like trash. I’m at a loss. My rpm gauge decided it didn’t want to work anymore but the car starts, goes up to at least 1500-2000 rpm’s, then falls back down and dies.

After it “warms up” a bit doing that it will idle at like 200rpm. Rpms bouncing up and down every little bit. I did mess with the BISS screw. No prevail. Does nothing.

Things I have done:
Installed AFPR, set to 43psi.
Installed new oil pressure switch.
Installed new oil pressure sensor.
Installed new engine coolant temp sensor.
Emptied tank and put 10 fresh gallons of 91 in.
All fluids and filters have been replaced but that probably doesn’t matter.
Fuel filter has been replaced.
Fuel level sender is now working but that also probably doesn’t matter.
AEM Wideband O2 set to p04 and wired to front O2 sensor.
I have DSMLink on a separate ECU but had issues with it not connecting. I got a new cable but my computer broke, so waiting on my new one so that’s out of the picture.
The check engine light does come on for 5 seconds then turns off.
The previous owner did Gates timing belt and whatnot but had exhaust 180 out, I reset timing and I am 99% sure I got the marks all lined up correctly.
16g turbo. The old t-25 was cracked.
Previous owner installed new spark plugs.
Previous owner installed a FMIC.
Previous owner installed some sort of bigger fuel pump.
I installed the piping and have all new couplers and clamps.
3” open downpipe as I need to get the car to the garage to mock up and weld on my brackets for the exhaust.
Maybe sometime this week or next week I’ll suck it up and push it to the garage to weld them on and weld my 2 vacuum leaks shut just to cross those off too.

There is 2 vacuum leaks at the “P” and “E” of the P E A nipples in the intake as the nipples are no longer there. “A” is currently capped.

I bought a new power transistor off eBay they was supposedly “guaranteed and tested” and when I hooked it up. It did nothing as if there was no spark. At least it did something with the old one. I thought maybe mine is bad due to how it’s running and the random loss of my rpm gauge.

Going to do a compression test in the next few days and I’ll check spark again, last time a couple months ago, all had spark.

Literally any ideas at this point would be helpful. I’m on the verge of dropping a match in the gas tank and never looking back. I’ve had this car for 7 months now and it’s been nothing but a headache. I just might buy all new sensors to scratch them off the list.

Video to show what it does:

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[evil_eagletalon]

Are we sure its not because of the o2 sensor missing? Sounds pegged rich.

 

[Dryppical]

I have a wideband O2 in the front spot setup for narrowband simulation. I thought I read how I have it setup I don’t need DSMLink as it thinks it’s a stock sensor, but I could be wrong. I’m probably wrong, that was months ago I did it. Honestly. I’ll just purchase a stock one and put that in for now to eliminate that.

I may be throwing parts at it but if it solves my issue. I’ll be happiest person alive. Once room opens up in the garage. I’ll push it to the garage, weld the exhaust brackets on and finish putting on the exhaust and weld the nipples on the intake as well.

This is what happens when you buy someone’s project and take their word for it running nicely but the “battery was dead” at the time of looking at it and I didn’t bring jumper cables. Car was hacked extremely bad when I started digging into it.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

I believe I covered everything I got so far, so any ideas of things to look at would be greatly appreciated before I lose my mind. I would post a log but dsmlink doesn’t want to connect but if a different cable or computer does the trick, I will post a log but until then, this is all I got.

1g and 2g have different cables because of the different diagnostic ports. OBDI vs OBDII Also, without a working CTS, the car won't run or won't want to run. You need to fix all of the minor stuff then move on.