Check out this sway bar!!!

[JOEY A]

Could somthing like this help DSMs hanlde better? Or is it to much rear bar and its only suited for honda guys.

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread/1616906

 

[Greg Collier]

Yes this is a good thing. The owner of this car, Edik Stepanyan, just happens to be a good buddy of mine and is consistently first in his class in NASA. My rear anti-roll bar happens to be one of (two) 1-1/4" Mitsubishi race bars actually made by the factory. I have no idea where John Mueller got it from, and I never asked...

 

[tstkl]

who cares who makes it, if it does its job correctly, Id buy it. Greg, can we get some pics?

 

[JOEY A]

Yeah can we see some pics of it, the sway bar company will make custom bars etc for people.

Can somone explain how much of a advantage it is to run a bar like this, compared to a sus tech sway car?

 

[Greg Collier]

tstkl who cares who makes it, if it does its job correctly, Id buy it. Greg, can we get some pics?

I thought for sure I had a photo in my gallery of the bar... I don't. I'm changing the panhard rod this week so I'll get some photos up in my gallery.

JOEY Can somone explain how much of a advantage it is to run a bar like this, compared to a sus tech sway car?

The size and type of material provides a stronger rigidity to the rear end. Thus it's tighter and more predictable when pushing the car to it's limits.

 

[JOEY A]

So is this is really worth having one custom made then for a street car?

 

[prostreetdsmx1]

I've actually been looking to start making something like that. Damn body roll and flex is just whack.

 

[Greg Collier]

So is this is really worth having one custom made then for a street car?

Keep in mine that both the Honda and my car are FWD so the application changes somewhat radically. Every advantage is worth having when you're racing... and it costs $. You need to create a realistic path that's dictated by your budget.

 

[JOEY A]

Im sure a off the self sway bar is fine, but I just came across the honda thread and wanted to see what some dsm thought of it.

Thanks

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

I've actually been looking to start making something like that. Damn body roll and flex is just whack.

Make it, just dont spend 3 years, if you can make it, ill run it. Hell, ill be the test bi***, I daily drive, I autocross, and I am starting to get out on track. Plus I live 2 blocks away from your house .

I am not too impressed with our sway bar options, I was thinking of trying to petition whiteline to make some endlinks and a sway bar for our car, but they kept giving me the run-around, which is kind of understandable as I wasnt really a dealer or vendor.

Martin, could you pm me your vendor (phone) number?

 

[mavisky]

God that rear bar is teh sexy. I want it.

 

[underradar92]

God that rear bar is teh sexy. I want it.

I feel ya brother! I'd love to see one for all 4 dsm variants, (1-2g, fwd, awd) but isn't that what would make this tougher than for Honda's?

 

[Greg Collier]

I pulled the bend-up and twisted panhard rod off today. I straightened it and re-enforced it with 3/4" tube aluminum. Here is also the photo of the anti-roll bar I promised...

 

[tstkl]

how did it get twisted, and what is, your panhard rod?

 

[Greg Collier]

how did it get twisted, and what is, your panhard rod?

It probably twisted from all the heavy loads placed on it by power drifting at excessive speeds...

A Panhard rod is a component of a car suspension system that provides lateral location of the axle. Originally invented by the Panhard automobile company of France in the early twentieth century, this device has been widely used ever since.

While the purpose of the rear suspension of an automobile is to allow the wheels to move vertically with respect to the body, it is undesirable to allow them to move forward and backwards, or from side to side. It is this latter movement that the Panhard rod is designed to prevent. It is a simple device, consisting of a rigid bar running sideways parallel to the rear axle, connecting one end of the axle to the car body or chassis on the opposite side of the vehicle. The bar is attached on either end with pivots that permit it to swivel upwards and downwards only, so that the axle is in turn allowed to move in the vertical plane only. This does not effectively locate the axle longitudinally, therefore it is usually used in conjunction with trailing arms which locate the axle in the longitudinal direction. This arrangement is not usually used with a leaf spring rear suspension, where the springs themselves supply enough lateral rigidity, but only with coil spring suspensions.

The advantage of the Panhard rod is its simplicity. Its major disadvantage is that the axle must necessarily move in an arc, relative to the body, with the radius equal to the length of the Panhard rod. If the rod is too short, there will be excessive sideways movement between the axle and the body at the ends of the spring travel; therefore the Panhard rod is less desirable on smaller cars than larger. A suspension design that is similar but eliminates the sideways component of the axle's vertical travel is the Watts linkage.

A Panhard rod may also be known as a Track bar.


Panhard Diagram---------------------------Watts Linkage Diagram

 

[JOEY A]

Fbodys have a Panhard bar they upgrade to keep the rear end more alinged etc, If somone really makes this sway bar and it will fit awd you def have a buyer from me.

Im gald I made this thread, it would be nice to have more sus parts for our cars.

 

[drivemusicnow]

Wait Wait Wait.

First of all, if you actually had something that large custom made for your car, you would end up doing more harm than good.


Something most people fail to understand is that Greg's car is a full race car. His suspension has been entirely put together by one of the best suspension tuners in the world, at least for DSMs. What he has on his car is not neccesarily what you should run on yours, especially when you don't have near the time and knowledge into knowing exactly what your suspension does, and how. The swaybar in particular is, as he stated, a MITSU part, and was designed specifically for a FWD car.

the car you linked to is also a full race car. Both Greg's and the honda are FWD, which is totally different on the track compared to AWD, when looking at suspension design, and modification.

My suggestion to anyone even thinking about designing, or asking someone else to design suspension parts would be to read up a bit.
Engineer to Win by Carroll Smith
Race Car engineering and mechanics by Paul Van Valkenburgh
Race Car Vehicle Dynamics by William & Douglas Milliken
Tires, Suspension, and Handling by John C. Dixon
Chassis Engineering/Chassis Design, Building and Tuning for High Performance Handling Herb Adams
and an easier, lower tech book. How to Make Your Car Handle by Fred Puhn

Don't think you'll just slap on a huge stabilizer bar and whip your car around the track perfectly. A LOT more goes into suspension than just throwing on the biggest swaybar you can find.

 

[drivemusicnow]

I've actually been looking to start making something like that. Damn body roll and flex is just whack.

In some cases, and to be honest, I haven't done the math/measurements to figure this out for my DSM yet, bodyroll will actually help the car be faster. Depending on the geometry, you'll find that sometimes the toe/camber on compression/extension will actually make the car faster around specific course, versus a car that uses too much "bar" to increase roll stiffness. It depends on the car, and I'm sure Dennis Grant would be able to answer it off the top of his head.


If I was in the market of selling parts, I'd offer some money to DG or chassis engineer and say, Heres a test vehicle, design a sway bar for street, auto-x and road race... or sway bar end links, or rear camber adjustment for 1gs etc etc.

The problem is determining whether the demand will support the supply.

 

[eclipsegsx1736]

I have the RRE rear bar, its an inch thick and adjustable three ways. It has that same straight-across shape, its really stiff..it's a nice piece. It's custom order thru RRE. I'll get some pics in a few days.

 

[JOEY A]

I would think a rear camber kit would sell pretty decent for our cars, since we have adjust issues?

 

[underradar92]

In some cases, and to be honest, I haven't done the math/measurements to figure this out for my DSM yet, bodyroll will actually help the car be faster. Depending on the geometry, you'll find that sometimes the toe/camber on compression/extension will actually make the car faster around specific course, versus a car that uses too much "bar" to increase roll stiffness. It depends on the car, and I'm sure Dennis Grant would be able to answer it off the top of his head.


If I was in the market of selling parts, I'd offer some money to DG or chassis engineer and say, Heres a test vehicle, design a sway bar for street, auto-x and road race... or sway bar end links, or rear camber adjustment for 1gs etc etc.

The problem is determining whether the demand will support the supply.

I fully get what you are saying, I would only get such a monster if it either: comes with a matched front, or: is matched to the already understeer inducing oem front. That said, I wouldn't install such a piece until I had a set of well dialed REAL coilovers. Then I may find I don't really need it. There may not be an awd/1g demand, plus the 1" one I have has precious little breathing room as it is.

Joey A, there are a few 1g rear camber options already, Whiteline or DME offset bushings or Ingalls adjustable controll arms. (Or make some like mine ;-))

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

Wait Wait Wait.

First of all, if you actually had something that large custom made for your car, you would end up doing more harm than good.


Something most people fail to understand is that Greg's car is a full race car. His suspension has been entirely put together by one of the best suspension tuners in the world, at least for DSMs. What he has on his car is not neccesarily what you should run on yours, especially when you don't have near the time and knowledge into knowing exactly what your suspension does, and how. The swaybar in particular is, as he stated, a MITSU part, and was designed specifically for a FWD car.

the car you linked to is also a full race car. Both Greg's and the honda are FWD, which is totally different on the track compared to AWD, when looking at suspension design, and modification.

My suggestion to anyone even thinking about designing, or asking someone else to design suspension parts would be to read up a bit.
Engineer to Win by Carroll Smith
Race Car engineering and mechanics by Paul Van Valkenburgh
Race Car Vehicle Dynamics by William & Douglas Milliken
Tires, Suspension, and Handling by John C. Dixon
Chassis Engineering/Chassis Design, Building and Tuning for High Performance Handling Herb Adams
and an easier, lower tech book. How to Make Your Car Handle by Fred Puhn

Don't think you'll just slap on a huge stabilizer bar and whip your car around the track perfectly. A LOT more goes into suspension than just throwing on the biggest swaybar you can find.

You obviously underestimate the growing road racing for the dsm community. We are looking for a lot more development. Honestly it is not the sway bar im looking for that I really liked about that setup, more the mounts and links it is set up on are much better than any options we have now.
And I really think you shouldnt assume we dont know, if I was saying I want the biggest one I could find or that I didnt want any body rolll I wouldnt have a suspension anymore .

For me, I would like this setup to be done mainly for the mounts and links, my car is getting closer and closer alon the way to becoming a purely road racing vehicle. Slowly, I would like to get this done. I personally like running a softer front and heavier rear for my driving style. Id like to do it right instead of getting some RM sway bars when I would like to have other options....



Can we have any more details on this RRE bar? Price, dimensions, different mounts, solid, hollow? Thanks in advance.

 

[Greg Collier]

You obviously underestimate the growing road racing for the dsm community. We are looking for a lot more development. Honestly it is not the sway bar im looking for that I really liked about that setup, more the mounts and links it is set up on are much better than any options we have now.
And I really think you shouldnt assume we dont know, if I was saying I want the biggest one I could find or that I didnt want any body rolll I wouldnt have a suspension anymore .
For me, I would like this setup to be done mainly for the mounts and links, my car is getting closer and closer alon the way to becoming a purely road racing vehicle. Slowly, I would like to get this done. I personally like running a softer front and heavier rear for my driving style. Id like to do it right instead of getting some RM sway bars when I would like to have other options....
Can we have any more details on this RRE bar? Price, dimensions, different mounts, solid, hollow? Thanks in advance.

I don't think the issue is bigger is better. The straightforwardness of a FWD rear suspension is absurdly simple. A couple of trailing arms that hold the axle to the body, a couple of shocks and springs for ride, and a simple Panhard rod so the rear wheels will follow the front of the car, and Walla, your Flexi Flyer is ready to rock'n roll.

Then you have the complexity of an AWD rear "independent" suspension with the added stabilizer bar, suspension arms, crossmembers, not to mention the independent drive axles and multiple pivot points. Seeing some of the work that "drifters" do on their rear suspension setups is amazing!

At least you AWD guys can find some simple camber adjustments, you literaly have to beat on it on a FWD...

 

[drivemusicnow]

You obviously underestimate the growing road racing for the dsm community. We are looking for a lot more development. Honestly it is not the sway bar im looking for that I really liked about that setup, more the mounts and links it is set up on are much better than any options we have now.
And I really think you shouldnt assume we dont know, if I was saying I want the biggest one I could find or that I didnt want any body rolll I wouldnt have a suspension anymore .

For me, I would like this setup to be done mainly for the mounts and links, my car is getting closer and closer alon the way to becoming a purely road racing vehicle. Slowly, I would like to get this done. I personally like running a softer front and heavier rear for my driving style. Id like to do it right instead of getting some RM sway bars when I would like to have other options....



Can we have any more details on this RRE bar? Price, dimensions, different mounts, solid, hollow? Thanks in advance.

I don't think I "obviously underestimate the growing road racing" because I've been saving and building my strictly track car DSM for almost two years now.


Talk to RRE about the sway bar, well, actually talk to John Mueller at "muellerized" chassis or whatnot. To be honest, most of the kids you talk to on the phone at RRE don't know much anymore. I'd send John and email, or give him a call at his seperate shop to see what he can do for you.


My point is it doesn't seem like you, nor most of the people who posted that they want one, or want to make one, actually understand the math behind it. A stabilizer bar is not an extremely complex piece, however changing the links entirely changes the geometry of the bar, which changes the actual roll stiffness, which then of course, changes your suspension equations.

If you are indeed setting up a straight track car, i'd suggest going to a good race or chassis design shop and cornerweighting the car, measuring unsprung mass, determining the mech advantage of the springs etc... which will then give you a MUCH better understanding of the car in general, which will make you better at deciding what you need to do next.

 

[drivemusicnow]

I fully get what you are saying, I would only get such a monster if it either: comes with a matched front, or: is matched to the already understeer inducing oem front. That said, I wouldn't install such a piece until I had a set of well dialed REAL coilovers. Then I may find I don't really need it. There may not be an awd/1g demand, plus the 1" one I have has precious little breathing room as it is.

Joey A, there are a few 1g rear camber options already, Whiteline or DME offset bushings or Ingalls adjustable controll arms. (Or make some like mine ;-))

Did elmo puke all over your brakes?


By the way, I like the custom control arms. Where did you get the parts?


( I was at Farm and Fleet today looking at tractor parts I could use on my rear suspension )