Car running REALLY Rich!

[TommyDSM]

I'm helping my buddy work out his issues with his car, but need some ideas...

His mods...
DNP Manifold, Tial 40mm Wastegate
Big 16G
2g o2 with Custom Exhaust
Walbro Fuel Pump
RC 550cc Injectors
Aeromotive FPR 43PSI Base Pressure
2g Maf w Dejon Tool Intake Pipe
1g BOV
DSMLink
FMIC
EGR BlockOff

Right now, we put in brand new NGK BPR7ES Plugs and they are coated black. Installed new Wires. Intake manifold and throttle body was also black. We clean them up, replace the BISS o-ring. Did Boost Leak Test, No leaks. ReAdjusted TPS based on VFAQ.
Adjusted Base timing to 5...
Right now it has idle surge, and I'm going to test the ISC Motor today to make sure its working right.
I'm going to get a new o2 sensor for it, since he doesn't know when it was changed last...
I'm also thinking of putting in stock 450cc injectors to eliminate the RC550 if they are bad... Also going to try Seafoam and MCCC... Since car has been sitting for 3 years... Oil was chanced recently and now is black, i'm sure from running rich and carbon build up?

Anything else I could check?

 

[LandoAWD]

Logs of the car "running rich"?

 

[JayRolla]

WBO2? Do you have dsmlink setup right for the injectors?

 

[TommyDSM]

Logs of the car "running rich"?

Getting one tonite

 

[TommyDSM]

WBO2? Do you have dsmlink setup right for the injectors?

He has one, but some reason its not working, trying to fix that too...
DSMLink is set correctly..

 

[TommyDSM]

Here are the logs,
So today I was able to test the ISC Motor and the one on the car was bad, So i swapped in a good one. But I wasn't able to test the good one with a battery to see if it actually works. But now the car was idling high...

 

[LandoAWD]

I'd start with an idle adjustment via the BISS.

 

[JayRolla]

Is the stock o2 working correctly, I know the motor will dump fuel when its stuck in open loop, maybe this is happening?

 

[TommyDSM]

I'd start with an idle adjustment via the BISS.

I've tried adjusting it but its idling way too high and right now its not working...

 

[TommyDSM]

Is the stock o2 working correctly, I know the motor will dump fuel when its stuck in open loop, maybe this is happening?

My buddy just picked up the o2 sensor last nite... We're going to throw it in today and see if it helps.

 

[mikelv]

Check Reading:
If you have the manual for DSM Link, make sure you follow the calculations for air and fuel control.
They even have examples posted for certain setups including 2G MAS hacked or not, things like that.

Tech Articles:

Also you need to check out the tech articles I posted to get familiar with Link if you're not already.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-tuning-ecu/298776-tuning-concepts-dsmlink-fuel-tables.html

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...9-tuning-concepts-dsmlink-airflow-tables.html

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-tuning-ecu/298781-explaining-volumetric-efficiency.html


Wideband:

Does the car have a wideband?? I think you mentioned he had one that isn't working? What's wrong with it? Is it an AEM? Also, does it read at all, or is it always showing "---"??? What I'm asking is when you guys go WOT; do you get some reading from the wideband? If so, then you could have a nasty exhaust leak causing air to hit the sensor making it go lean. So when you open up the car, and start flowing higher, you'll get some reading. Depending on where the sensor is installed, any leak could mess you up. Where is the wideband sensor installed on the pipe? If the wideband reads always "---"and there is no leak, then your sensor is most likely bad. They're like 80 bucks and go out pretty easily, especially when you run race gas. That's the downfall with going with a cheap wideband; I'm on my third sensor in about a year and a half.

I'm sorry I was unable to read your posts regarding the logs due that my network computer here at work will not allow you to access them. I will check them out tonight.

Fuel Trim Elimination

If the car had a wideband installed, or you can tune on WB readings, then one thing you can do is eliminate fuel trims all together. Do this by running Link as close to a stand alone as possible. Just unplug the O2 sensor completely, and run the car closed loop. Then adjust your airflow table, and global/dead time sliders, as such that the car runs 14.7/1 depending on the MAS frequency entering the ECU. From there adjust your fuel sliders to get the proper ratio for WOT depending on fuel octane and boost level. That is the simplest way to tuning for correct ratios. (For some people, fuel trims can be confusing and cause part throttle rich conditions).

Boost Leak:

Another problem could be boost leak, (as we have heard a million times). If you have an intercooler pipe leaking, or half blown off, you're going to have all kinds of idle/cruise/WOT problems. The car will run rich as hell, and surge/stall all over the place. Boost leak the system, and look visually for any signs of the piping loose or off.

As someone mentioned ensure you adjust your BISS in order to dial in idle. There is plenty of reading on the FAQ's on how that works.

Overview:

It's about 90% chance of a tuning problem, so your in the right place. It's not that your sesnors are bad, it's just they're going hay-wire because you have an air/fuel ratio problem. If the tune is off, the ECU will continually try and fix it because it will have a difficult time trying to expoliate the fuel tables. It has a problem developing the table pattern.

Don't try and jump into more complicated issues for checking all the simple stuff first. I've made that mistake many of times, as I'm sure you know. Biggest thing is checking for boost leak, and get the settings right for your injectors, dial in the dead time, and adjust your airflow tables as such. Your base VE table should be fine.

Have you tried posting your logs on the DSMLink forum? You will definitely get more help there as well. Good luck and keep us posted!

 

[1gDSM4g63]

You know how rich he's running? And the base pressure should be somewhere in the 37-39 psi range on a 1g and 43 psi. for 2g.

 

[TommyDSM]

Mikelv,

The wideband stop working when my buddy took the downpipe off to put new gaskets between the o2 housing and downpipe. He has the LC-1, and right now it reads 18:1 constant doesn't change.

we've done boost leaks many times and he doesn't have any boost leaks.

Everything in DSMLink is pretty much zeroed out. Only thing that has changed was the global and deadtime set for his RC550cc Injectors. And 2g Maf in airflow.

I'm trying to slowly get everything adjusted properly to zero in on the problem. I appreciate all the inputs and try each one as they come in.

Ive posted logs in DSMLink also.

 

[mikelv]

Mikelv,

The wideband stop working when my buddy took the downpipe off to put new gaskets between the o2 housing and downpipe. He has the LC-1, and right now it reads 18:1 constant doesn't change.

we've done boost leaks many times and he doesn't have any boost leaks.

Everything in DSMLink is pretty much zeroed out. Only thing that has changed was the global and deadtime set for his RC550cc Injectors. And 2g Maf in airflow.

I'm trying to slowly get everything adjusted properly to zero in on the problem. I appreciate all the inputs and try each one as they come in.

Ive posted logs in DSMLink also.

Sorry dude, I'm at work and can't look at your logs right now.

Fill in the blanks for me:

Global Settings:

Dead Time:

Airflow Table (by Hz):

STFT (cruise):

STFT (idle):

LTFT (cruise):

LTFT (idle):

Max IDC (WOT):

O2 (WOT):

Max MAF Raw (WOT):

AirFlow per Rev (idle):

Max Timing Advance (WOT):

Max Knock (WOT):

Did you say if this car was a 1G or a 2G?

You got to sit back and think about it. It's all tuning. The car has larger injectors, so it's going to run rich with zeroed out stock numbers. So take away fuel and airflow until she runs right. From everything you said you've already checked the car is healthy. Fresh sensors, fresh plugs, ect....


If your airflow tables are completely zero, this is going to cause you to run rich, because the ECU will flow as if you still have 450's in the car. So when it calculates the fuel tables based on airflow settings, it will flow 550's the same amount as 450's. Similar to having to go negative on the AFC, but now with DSMLink you have fuel control. They both are an effect of each other, and they make the changes directly at the ECU, so there is no "fooling" or "signal interception".

Here is the formula for 550's:

(450/550) - 1 = (-22%)

Start your global settings at (-22%)

Then adjust your dead time and use the trial and error.

Dead Time Settings:

Dead Time settings are fuel based settings that are applied all the time, same as Global. This value is simply a measurement of injector pulsewidth. With larger injectors, you don't just get more fuel flow; you also get slower response. Basically dead time is the amount of nanoseconds of "dead-time" between injector pulses. (How long they spray/don't spray) This is important for many reasons; mainly ensure the proper timing of fuel flow in relation to airflow. If you're dead time setting is too high, then the pulsewidth is too high, and fuel isn't spraying when it's suppose to. The idle surge can come from too much or too little dead time.

Here is the procedure outlined in the DSMLink Manual:

Use the long-term fuel trim (SelectedLTFT) value calculated by the ECU as your guide. The following outlines a good procedure for getting the dead time right for your setup.

1. Car must be fully warmed up then must be operated at cruise for about 10 minutes followed by idle for 5 minutes to get stable LTFT values.
2. Compare the LTFT at idle and cruise. You want both to be right about zero (+/- 5% or so).
3. If the two are about the same, dead time setting is good.
4. If they are equal but non-zero, adjust the global setting.
5. If idle LTFT is more positive than cruise LTFT, increase the dead time, less, decrease.

A minor quirk in the implementation of the dead time value adjustment requires that any value entered into this dialog must be evenly divisible by 15. The software will automatically make appropriate adjustments for values you enter that are not evenly divisible by 15.

Airflow adjustment:

Now if you're close on the fuel tables, let's talk about the airflow settings. If your running rich still and you've gotten your global and dead time pretty close, the car should at least idle ok. If it's too high/low give the BISS a few turns in the proper direction and get her smooth. You can also slide the 50 Hz slider to get the idle correct. If the car has cams, or hates to idle around 850, then bump it up to a 1000rpm. Just adjust your RPM table to 1000rpm, then fine tune with the BISS.

Just start pulling airflow at each Hz evenly across the board, (-2% or -3%) at a time. No wideband, no problem. Make those adjustments based off fuel trim readings. If your trims are negative, then your rich lean it out. If they are positive, richen it up. It's pretty easy to get a good cruise tune.


Here's the easiest way without a wideband:

Have the guy drive while you worry about the laptop, trust me driving and doing this is a pain in the ass! Get on the open highway where he can hold a steady rpm and throttle position. Stop and go isn't going to cut it. Watch your STFT, and compare them to the MAF Raw Freq. Based on what your fuel trims are doing, you can adjust that airflow table in relation to its freq range. So for example, get the guy to maintain a speed where the MAF RAW signal is reading 150hz range....see the STFT is, and make your airflow adjustments....so on, and so on. That should fine tune you enough to work on WOT fuel sliders.

Wideband

Did you check that downpipe and O2 housing flange? Did it come loose? Does the car have an exhaust leak? If you had it there you would know it, and if the wideband is in the downpipe right after, it would cause this. Trust me I know, both of those situations I have personal experience with. If that thing leaks at all, your going to read lean constantly. Check it again, tighten the bolts. Either way, if you get that wideband working properly, it'll make tuning such a breeze.

Get the cruise right, and then we can worry about WOT. Hell I wouldn't even want to tune without wideband at wide open period, but we can based on other factors. Let's see where this goes. Good luck man! Let me know.

 

[1992awdlaser]

I would say the wideband is reading wrong because of an exhaust leak between it and the motor. You saying "The wideband stop working when my buddy took the downpipe off to put new gaskets between the o2 housing and downpipe." makes me believe there is a leak even more, most likely at one of the gaskets he put on.

Tell him to take his foot off the gas and the idle will go down. Or adjust the throttle cable if he wasn't holding the gas. In each log the throtpos reads 4%.

Get another log with ltft mid also captured.

 

[TommyDSM]

I would say the wideband is reading wrong because of an exhaust leak between it and the motor. You saying "The wideband stop working when my buddy took the downpipe off to put new gaskets between the o2 housing and downpipe." makes me believe there is a leak even more, most likely at one of the gaskets he put on.

Tell him to take his foot off the gas and the idle will go down. Or adjust the throttle cable if he wasn't holding the gas. In each log the throtpos reads 4%.

Get another log with ltft mid also captured.

The funny thing is... The reason he took it off was because he had a exhaust leak between the o2 housing and downpipe bad. The WBo2 was reading fine before... After we fixed the exhaust leak, it no longer reads....

His foot wasn't on the gas, and I gave the cable pretty good slack. Thats before the log...

 

[jrohner]

Maybe the throttle stop is adjusted up too much, holding the throttle open at idle. I would think it would idle slower if it was really rich. You mentioned carbon buildup -- that all gets washed off when running super rich, which I supposed could end up in the oil making it black.

Did he recalibrate the wideband? Is a wire from/to the wideband broken from twisting or pulling on the wires when messing with the exhaust?

Has he compensated for the 43psi fuel pressure? 1G's are around 37psi stock.

 

[1992awdlaser]

He needs to figure out why the throttle is stuck open at 4% first.

I missed where the fuel pressure is set at 43psi. For that you are going to want a global of about -24%. Here's the math.

FlowFactor = sqrt(NewPress / OldPress)
FlowFactor = sqrt(43/37)
FlowFactor = sqrt(1.162)
FlowFactor = 1.077

Now you have to plug this into the global calculation.

Global = stock injector size/ new injector size/ flow factor-1
Global = 450/550/1.077-1
Global = -0.24

 

[TommyDSM]

Maybe the throttle stop is adjusted up too much, holding the throttle open at idle. I would think it would idle slower if it was really rich. You mentioned carbon buildup -- that all gets washed off when running super rich, which I supposed could end up in the oil making it black.

Did he recalibrate the wideband? Is a wire from/to the wideband broken from twisting or pulling on the wires when messing with the exhaust?

Has he compensated for the 43psi fuel pressure? 1G's are around 37psi stock.

Good point about the throttle stop. He did change out the Idle Switch because he broke the pin off it. Maybe ti was turned too far in and is keeping the throttle plate open. Will check that.

But the WBo2 was calibrated before it was installed. I did ask him about the wiring... thinking maybe when he pulled the ecu out, the wbo2 could of gotten detached.

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

Have you checked the EGR you said your intake was black that could be due to an EGR that is stuck open soiling the intake with burnt exhaust gasses. May want to check that.

 

[TommyDSM]

He needs to figure out why the throttle is stuck open at 4% first.

I missed where the fuel pressure is set at 43psi. For that you are going to want a global of about -24%. Here's the math.

FlowFactor = sqrt(NewPress / OldPress)
FlowFactor = sqrt(43/37)
FlowFactor = sqrt(1.162)
FlowFactor = 1.077

Now you have to plug this into the global calculation.

Global = stock injector size/ new injector size/ flow factor-1
Global = 450/550/1.077-1
Global = -0.24

DSMLink came with global setting for RC550, which was set at -18.

Would all this flow and fuel pressure need to be compensated if the RC550 are flow rated at 43psi?

 

[snowborder714]

His fuel pressure might be 43.5 base.

1G auto - Spec 42.7psi (Standard value 41 - 46 psi)
1G manual - Spec 36.3psi (Standard value 36 - 38 psi)

Make sure it's being set with the vacuum line off and car running at operating temps or using DSMlink with the car off and vacuum line connected.

 

[TommyDSM]

Have you checked the EGR you said your intake was black that could be due to an EGR that is stuck open soiling the intake with burnt exhaust gasses. May want to check that.

EGR has block off plate

 

[TommyDSM]

His fuel pressure might be 43.5 base.

1G auto - Spec 42.7psi (Standard value 41 - 46 psi)
1G manual - Spec 36.3psi (Standard value 36 - 38 psi)

Make sure it's being set with the vacuum line off and car running at operating temps or using DSMlink with the car off and vacuum line connected.

Yep, Car running line off. Has been checked.

 

[TommyDSM]

Here is some logs from today. I adjusted the TPS so it reads correctly now. But his ISC after swapping out the bad one for a good one seems to be not working either...