Can't figure this one out! Clutch, oil pump, something else?

[DGajre777]

First of all, Happy Thanksgiving, fellow DSMTuners! The last week has been stressful thanks to my car (and a few other things), but hopefully someone can help me figure this out.

I have an oil leak near the exhaust manifold. The stud on the top right side of the manifold needs a helicoil but I still managed to put the stud back in. There's oil leaking around the exhaust manifold and I'm sure the stud in the middle is loose but since I haven't cleaned it up in a few weeks, I don't know the source of the leak anymore.

3 days ago my clutch died, car wouldn't move until 6000 RPM. I had the car towed to a shop nearby (one I hadn't used before) to put in a Fidanza 2.1. They took the tranny apart and found that the ACT flywheel was completed chewed up by the ACT 2100 and 6 puck sprung hub disc (3.5 years, 25k).

I found a new 7 bolt flywheel at a local Clutch rebuild shop and when I told the guy that I was looking for one with a step of 0.610", he said that the flywheel was 200th of an inch and would work fine.

The owner of the shop I went to (where the clutch was being replaced) was being an ass and told me that if I didn't have a flywheel within an hour, he would have to charge me labor to be able to roll the car off the rack and labor again to put the flywheel again. But luckily, I found the flywheel and his "quick 4 hour clutch job on Friday" ended up finishing on Monday at 3pm.

When I called to ask if the car was ready, the owner said that the car doesn't go in any gear and I need to shut the car off to make it go in gear. I asked him if he had adjusted the clutch pedal and his response was "You don't adjust a clutch pedal on a hydraulic system" WTF. Anyways, I picked up the car, the pedal was engaging off the floor (I guess the guy was short and couldn't push the pedal all the way in with my Corbeau seats). I adjusted the pedal and the car ran fine.

I checked the oil yesterday and it was about a quart, so I put a quart in and it was over halfway inbetween the two hash marks. The battery was off for over 3 days and the car idles at 200 RPM. I adjusted the pedal out a little too much and I heard rattling noises that appear to be coming from the transmission area at high RPM and smoking smell from the clutch disc. I adjusted the pedal back in a bit and the car runs better without any TRANS rattle and engages at a point where I can drive it. When I drive the car around, the RPM falls back down from 3000 to 0 very quickly and the car shuts off. I have to push the gas pedal, while pushing the clutch down and pulling on the parking brake to slow the car down.

This morning, I took it to my regular shop to put a Prothane side mount in that I couldn't get out cause the damn bolt was stuck. I had my usual guy look at the rattle noise and he said it appeared to come from under the valve train. I borrowed his a stereoscopic and the rattle appears to be coming from one of the exhaust lifters in line with runner # 3 on the FP manifold. I also have a custom bracket to mount the FP manifold heat shied so I don't know if that's the cause of the rattle, but I'm wondering if I should take it off to see the bracket or manifold its causing the rattle.

A friend of mine from Tuners told me to try some Lucas Oil Stabilizer (Pure Synthetic), so I put 1/2 a bottle in in the car. The oil level now reads 1/2-3/4 quarts OVER the top has mark BUT my oil pressure gauge now reads 1mm above L, while still idling at 200 RPM. IF I'm OVER the top hash of the oil level, my oil pressure should be reading HIGH, not LOW, so why is it reading low?

I also don't understand why the valvetrain rattle starts at 3000 RPM or why it is idling at 200 RPM. I drove around for over 30 mins and the ECU should have readjusted all its settings by now.

IF the oil pressure sensor is dead, the why is my engine rattling? If it is not dead and my oil pump is dead, how is my engine still running and not seized up? Engine does not overheat and the OIL light is not ON. I know the oil light works because it came on for 1/2 a second when I was low on oil about 2 weeks ago.

I'm leaking towards a failed or failing oil pump. Since I don't have another car anymore, I don't have any option but to fix this car. Any ideas?

 

[turbo98eclipse]

Did you try anything we spoke about earlier?

I didn't know you had a fab'd bracket (or corbeau seats ) -- why not just double check that first just to eliminate the possibility

 

[DGajre777]

Did you try anything we spoke about earlier?

I didn't know you had a fab'd bracket (or corbeau seats ) -- why not just double check that first just to eliminate the possibility

Didn't have a chance to do anything, I had to get back to work... I took the heat shield off the air filter since it could be a cause of rattle. The engine was too hot to take the FP manifold bracket off, but when it cools down, I'm going to take the FP bracket and the FP manifold cover off.

Leaning towards loss of oil pressure somewhere causing the oil leak AND/OR a bad oil pump.

 

[DGajre777]

Update:

Here's the a link to a video of the rattle, you can hear it when I rev up a couple hundred RPM. Notice the oil pressure and RPM at the end of the video.

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/bUeuJZ2lLCc?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/bUeuJZ2lLCc?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

I cranked up the car this afternoon, on start-up oil pressure went up and RPM went up to 700 RPM (pic)... so I guess I can rule out a bad oil pump?!

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Sorry to hear the ride is acting up during the holidays!
So, if I'm understanding, your idle has returned to normal now? I wasn't clear if that was completely resolved or not.

That sure isn't a pretty sound but I've heard my car make very similar noises at that rpm range. An oil change fixed that up pretty good tough. The sound didn't seem unlike lifters, obviously not normal lifter tick, but more severe. Do you think a lifter has collapsed?
Do you have a compression tester?

Compression test/removal of the mani will likely give you a good idea on any possible head damage. Might want to pop the VC just to be sure you don't have a collapsed lifter while you're at it.

Is the flywheel stock? Are you runnin' the same 25k old disc? TOB was replaced, I'm sure. How badly do you think you were burning up your new gear before you realized the clutch was slipping/smoking?

Careful getting into it with that much oil in there, too. Seal pop city. The car will feel pretty sluggish at higher rpms too, from my experience. Might be a good idea to drain some of that oil - you know, to limit the variables.

Hope you had a good Thanksgiving!

EDIT: Oh man, how I feel the pain on clueless mechanics. They're too far above the manual, they won't listen to the owners input and generally just go brain dead as soon as a DSM rolls in. "You don't adjust hydraulic systems.." talk about only half the story. I did my own clutch job the last time(with Ryuto's help!) because of this reason. My mech took 9 hours to do the job because he refused to take off the cross member. He was afraid it wouldn't go back on right. Yes, that's right, he pulled it out from over the member instead of dropping it straight down. No shit you took 4-6 hours too long.

 

[DGajre777]

Sorry to hear the ride is acting up during the holidays!
So, if I'm understanding, your idle has returned to normal now? I wasn't clear if that was completely resolved or not.

That sure isn't a pretty sound but I've heard my car make very similar noises at that rpm range. An oil change fixed that up pretty good tough. The sound didn't seem unlike lifters, obviously not normal lifter tick, but more severe. Do you think a lifter has collapsed?
Do you have a compression tester?

Compression test/removal of the mani will likely give you a good idea on any possible head damage. Might want to pop the VC just to be sure you don't have a collapsed lifter while you're at it.

Is the flywheel stock? Are you runnin' the same 25k old disc? TOB was replaced, I'm sure. How badly do you think you were burning up your new gear before you realized the clutch was slipping/smoking?

Careful getting into it with that much oil in there, too. Seal pop city. The car will feel pretty sluggish at higher rpms too, from my experience. Might be a good idea to drain some of that oil - you know, to limit the variables.

Hope you had a good Thanksgiving!

EDIT: Oh man, how I feel the pain on clueless mechanics. They're too far above the manual, they won't listen to the owners input and generally just go brain dead as soon as a DSM rolls in. "You don't adjust hydraulic systems.." talk about only half the story. I did my own clutch job the last time(with Ryuto's help!) because of this reason. My mech took 9 hours to do the job because he refused to take off the cross member. He was afraid it wouldn't go back on right. Yes, that's right, he pulled it out from over the member instead of dropping it straight down. No shit you took 4-6 hours too long.

Yeah, it sucks not having a car!

Flywheel appeared to be a stock(ish) unit (pics attached). I'm using the clutch disc that came with the Fidanza 2.1 kit. The OEM TOB was backordered locally till Feb 2011 I was going to order one online but then the car died the next day and it went to a shop in town. I asked one of the mechanics how the current OEM TOB was. He said it looked good and didn't have any bearing play and that they would put the TOB back on BUT I don't know if it was replaced with the Fidanza (FID) TOB or if they put the OEM TOB with 25k on it.

The idle hasn't returned to normal. It idles at 700ish RPM and the oil pressure is up during start up as in the picture, but after the car warms up it idles at 200 RPM like towards the end of the video.

I was thinking probably a lifter or something else in the valve train. My other thought was that the oil leaking past the center stud (the stud isn't all the way tight and has oil around it) is causing a drop in oil pressure and causing that lifter to make that noise. I'll be fixing the exhaust manifold stud and re-install the FP manifold to see if it makes a difference.

I don't have a compression tester, but can borrow one. I guess I can do a compression test, then an oil change after that just to be sure, and if that doesn't do anything then take apart the valve cover to see what the issues are.

It was a quart above the max notch yesterday. I parked the car overnight and when I checked the oil this afternoon, it was right at the MAX notch. So it appears that somewhere I'm losing a quart when the pressure builds up; that's one hell of an oil leak. I checked under the car, there's no oil on the ground, but the oil pan is covered with oil (3rd pic).

The slip/smoke was for a short time, while my clutch pedal was adjusted all the way out. I readjusted the pedal and it doesn't appear to slip or smoke from what I can tell. I may get a better idea about the clutch after I get the valve train rattle and idle issues resolved.

As for shops/mechanic... the clutch shop lost my boot that goes around the clutch fork, so now it just sits open. They also lost one of my Prothane mount inserts for the rear mounts and as my car sits, it has 3 Prothane mounts and Energy Suspension inserts on the rear lower mount.

 

[delta448]

Compression test sounds good, leak-down testing might be of better help. I think you might end up needing to pull that valve cover off. The video sounds like multiple collapsed lifters to me, which could mean more than just the obvious. You may have a kicked rocker that the cam lobe is slapping around like a trailer park housewife.

You also may have damage done to the cylinder head enough to cause the loss of oil you're seeing, have you checked for standing oil in the exhaust or had any tailpipe smoke after it warms up?

Your dropping idle after warm-up might be a clue as well. With a heavier flywheel now, the BISS may need readjusting, but I think it's more than that. I do suspect valve issues.

I've got my fingers crossed for you Dee.

 

[shockracer]

what i had done for lifter tick was use an OEM oil filter and some synthetic, sounds funny but it does work. This concept is in other forums here as-well.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

that middle stud you were talking about is an oil passage in the head, make sure that is tight! i cant believe nobody else knows this...

 

[DGajre777]

what i had done for lifter tick was use an OEM oil filter and some synthetic, sounds funny but it does work. This concept is in other forums here as-well.

Tried that a few months ago, had no change. Went back to Mobil1 filter and 10W30 Synthetic oil.

that middle stud you were talking about is an oil passage in the head, make sure that is tight! i cant believe nobody else knows this...

... My other thought was that the oil leaking past the center stud (the stud isn't all the way tight and has oil around it) is causing a drop in oil pressure and causing that lifter to make that noise. I'll be fixing the exhaust manifold stud and re-install the FP manifold to see if it makes a difference.

The question is... will it cause a lifter or something else in the valvetrain to make that noise if that center top stud is not tight?

 

[turbo98eclipse]

Wow that sounds bad man... When we were talking about the head, I don't know why I didn't think about removing JUST the valve cover . A lot quicker/easier to atleast get a general idea of what's up in there.

 

[DGajre777]

Compression checked out to be between 150-155 across the board, replaced the spark plugs. There are no signs of oil on the tail pipe or any tail pipe smoke after warm up.

Fixing the leaking exhaust manifold stud and putting a helicoil on another hole tomorrow or Thursday; and then an oil change.

After that... time to take the valve cover off.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Nice. Keep us in the loop!

 

[DGajre777]

Took the FP manifold out, the oil leak appears to be coming from the exhaust port and leaking down the engine between the head and the FP manifold.

I'm taking the valve cover off tomorrow, if its not too cold. It's in a parking lot at a shop and the owner was saying that he would need to take the head off to see if it is cracked, but it may be a valve or a valve stem seal. I'm still hoping that it's a failed lifter.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Where are all the vet's?! I wish I could comment further on the oil/head/exhaust port situation. I'd be cautious of letting a shop take the head off. I mean, I just don't see cause. That and I not only refuse to trust a shop's idea of a DSM timing job but they charge out the ass for it, too.

Btw, clean looking flywheel! Definitely stock and freshly cut. First things first (idle/oil issue), but did you get to see the shape your 25k old disc was in before it went back on? At 20k my kevlar 6puck/hybrid was right to the rivets. I also think that if it IS just a lifter, it may very well be responsible for your low idle. Does your idle jump around a bit or is it a steady 200rpm (as steady as a 200rpm idle can be, at least)?

 

[DGajre777]

Where are all the vet's?! I wish I could comment further on the oil/head/exhaust port situation. I'd be cautious of letting a shop take the head off. I mean, I just don't see cause. That and I not only refuse to trust a shop's idea of a DSM timing job but they charge out the ass for it, too.

Btw, clean looking flywheel! Definitely stock and freshly cut. First things first (idle/oil issue), but did you get to see the shape your 25k old disc was in before it went back on? At 20k my kevlar 6puck/hybrid was right to the rivets. I also think that if it IS just a lifter, it may very well be responsible for your low idle. Does your idle jump around a bit or is it a steady 200rpm (as steady as a 200rpm idle can be, at least)?

Yeah, taking the head off is my last option. I'm going to take the valve cover off tomorrow and see what I find. If I can't find any loose or collapsed lifters or anything else, then I'm going to do a leak down test, assuming I can still do one with the valve cover and FP manifold off. I don't see a reason why I can't. Instead of pressure being lost to the tail pipe or the oil cap, I should be able to see it leaking from the intake or exhaust valves.

The 25k disc was a ACT 2100 6 puck ceramic disc, it was completely down to the rivets, nothing left on it. I'm never putting another 6 puck disc on a street car again, especially since it also killed my ACT flywheel.

As for the idle, it starts off at 800 RPM but as it warms up, it slowly goes down to 200 and stays at 200RPM while wobbling up and down maybe 20-30 RPM.

 

[DGajre777]

Update:

Took the valve cover off, couldn't find anything loose (and I'm not surprised).

Found ONE shop in town that knew what a Cylinder Leakdown test was, but they want everything put back together. So on option is to put the valve cover back and the FP manifold back ON and to have the car towed there.

I'm ruling out bad valve seals/guides because I didn't see any oil or deposits build up on the spark plug. I'm also ruling out worn rings because the tip of the spark plug didn't have any oil deposits on it and the compression check came out good.

Since a lifter can "pump up" and create negative valve clearance to a point where its valve cannot close, I'm wondering if I should replace the lifters FIRST and see if the rattle goes away.

My other option is to try to borrow a leak down tester from our flight school's maintenance shop and have the current shop (where it's parked) do one leak down test, but if a bad lifter is not fully closing the valve, I don't see what a leak down test will show other than show a leak at the valves, which I know exists, since there's oil on the exhaust port... unless it's leaking at a headgasket too, but then how would there be oil INSIDE the exhaust port?! Am I missing something here?

At this time I'm really leaning towards replacing the lifters, putting the valve cover and FP manifold back on and seeing if the rattle goes away. I could always drive it to the shop in town to get a leak down test after the new lifters are in.

P.s. Anything better than ITM lifters out there? $89 for a set is awesome, especially when my local shop wanted $220 for the entire set. DSM Graveyard - Your #1 Source for DSM Parts!

 

[delta448]

I'm ruling out bad valve seals/guides because I didn't see any oil or deposits build up on the spark plug.

I don't think you can rule out exhaust valve guides and seals yet. Remember they'll leak into the port first, and with reasonable exhaust flow/heat the oil would never reach the combustion chamber.

Since a lifter can "pump up" and create negative valve clearance to a point where its valve cannot close, I'm wondering if I should replace the lifters FIRST and see if the rattle goes away.

You could try cleaning the lifters first... unless you already have another known good set handy. I'd be pretty interested in seeing what you find with this.

I'm leaning towards a bad exhaust valve guide(s) after seeing the oil buildup, but I'm not sure it would make a noise like that. That's the part that really throws me off and makes me wonder.

 

[DGajre777]

I don't think you can rule out exhaust valve guides and seals yet. Remember they'll leak into the port first, and with reasonable exhaust flow/heat the oil would never reach the combustion chamber.

Crap, I didn't even think about the exhaust flow pushing the oil away from the combustion chamber. But at the same time, a lifter could keep the exhaust valve partially open and allowing oil to seep out the port, so I wouldn't really know if its the seals or guides until I replace the lifters - correct?!

You could try cleaning the lifters first... unless you already have another known good set handy. I'd be pretty interested in seeing what you find with this.

I'm leaning towards a bad exhaust valve guide(s) after seeing the oil buildup, but I'm not sure it would make a noise like that. That's the part that really throws me off and makes me wonder.

The lifters are stock with 92k on them, figured I'd buy new ones while I'm having ticking issues. I was planning to clean all the oil in the exhaust port and on the engine, put everything back on and crank the car and see if it still leaks oil. If it does, then drive to the only shop in town that does a leak down test.

 

[DGajre777]

Update: I bought lifters last week and took a video this afternoon. A picture from the video is below, the camera was positioned to "look in" from the exhaust port that has all the oil.

I've narrowed it down to a bad valve stem seal on Cyl # 4 and a cracked/broken valve guide (exhaust) either on Cylinder # 3 or 4. I'm going to try to figure that out sometime next week once the helicoil issue is resolved.

Now for the helicoil issue...

I needed one put in, and the shop where my car is parked, installed it an angle, so it points lower than all the other studs which is preventing the FP manifold from going back on. I have the link for a Big Sert/TimeSert bookmarked, but I'd have to fork out $72 when I already paid the damn shop money to put the helicoil in.

I'm thinking about finding the exhaust stud below and taking the helicoil out and trying to put this stud in that tapped hole. It looks like the M10 portion of it has a 1.5 thread. Logic tells me that the outer diameter (OD) for a M8x1.25 helicoil would be M10x1.25.

Source - http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/372275-oversized-exhaust-studs.html#post152387645

I'd hate to make the stud hole bigger on my FP manifold and figured I could use this, if I could find it... assuming it's a M10 x 1.25 not M10 x 1.5. Even if it is the wrong thread size, I can have the shop put in a new helicoil for a M10 and I could use the stud in the picture. Does anyone know where I can find the stud in the picture? I've tried Ace and couldn't find one.

I also thought about using a bolt instead of a stud after the FP manifold is installed. My other "genius" idea was using a butane torch or a welder (if I have to) to heat up the stud and try to bend it. I'm sure my SS stud won't bend, I might have to find a regular stud to try it. Has anyone tried this before?

Not to mention that I need another helicoil on the lower center stud hole (the one with the oil passage behind it) since the stud in it just keeps turning.

 

[Shadow21]

That looks exactly like a bad valve stem seal to me. My gf's 2g had ALL 16 of them lift up on hers after the rebuild and all ports looked like that. I ASSUME they were all the wrong size because its not possible. Anyways does that sound sound like its coming from the timing belt area? My tensioner went out and it sounded similar to that noise

 

[DGajre777]

That looks exactly like a bad valve stem seal to me. My gf's 2g had ALL 16 of them lift up on hers after the rebuild and all ports looked like that. I ASSUME they were all the wrong size because its not possible. Anyways does that sound sound like its coming from the timing belt area? My tensioner went out and it sounded similar to that noise

Last time I tried to pin point the source with a mechanic stethoscope, the ticking noise sounded like it was coming under the "2000" of the DOHC 2000 on the valve cover. Timing tensioner was replaced with the belts 30k ago.

 

[DGajre777]

I found out who makes that stud

Item # 675-571 - Double-Ended Studs Class 10.9
Brand: Dorman - AutoGrade - Boxed
"A" Thread Size :M8-1.25
"A" Thread Length :14mm
"B" Thread Size :M10-1.50
"B" Thread Length :19mm
Shoulder Length :2mm
Overall Length :35mm

Item # 329324 - Double-Ended Studs Class 10.9
Brand: Pik-A-Nut (Boxed)
"A" Thread Size : M8-1.25
"A" Thread Length : 14mm
"B" Thread Size : M10-1.50
"B" Thread Length : 19mm
Shoulder Length : 2mm
Overall Length : 35mm

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Sucks about the heli-coil. Does the shop not stand by their work?

 

[DGajre777]

Sucks about the heli-coil. Does the shop not stand by their work?

Obviously not this one, I got a "sorry man, I thought it was straight". The retard then drilled a bigger hole in my FP manifold, which just pissed me off. I managed to get the manifold back on yesterday over the crooked stud and bolted everything back up. Hopefully the new FFWD embossed gasket will help.

Still need to resolve the oil leak and noise issue... waiting for some valve stem seals to come in.