Can anyone post an e85 timing table for me to compare

[sbeck]

I just got my t28 installed and had to drop my timing quite a bit to get rid of all my knock and definitely can feel the loss in torque. I was wondering if anyone with a professional e85 tune could post there timing table so I can compare mine to see how much more timing I can run if I switch over to e85.

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[UofACATS]

That depends on the load factor youre seeing. If it's 2.6 or above, then yes that timing curve is a bit soft. However, for example, 1.8 looks pretty good so it just depends. Can you post a log or give us more details?

Switching to E85 will allow substantial timing increase across the board. Your specific car will determine exactly how much.

 

[sbeck]

Its raining pretty good today so i will have to wait to do a good log. I have a wideband, boost sensor, and iat sensor I need to install so I can do a better tune with some good datalogging instead of just using the afratio est. My car runs, idles, and drives really good I just went from the stock t25 at stock boost to 20psi with the t28 and when I had the timing I had with the t25 the car felt like a rocket but was getting lots of knock. Now it still feels a lot faster than before but I don't get pushed back in the seat hard like before I turned down the timing. At full throttle I am interpolating between 1.8 and 2.2 load factor.

 

[UofACATS]

That can be a misleading feeling of the all-at-once torque of the T25 vs the softer hitting T28. It's like how a 16G "feels" faster than a 50-trim car when it's not. That said, pulled timing makes a big difference in how the car feels. You're probably experiencing a bit of both.

As far as pushing the edge of timing, I always try to increase it slowly, and take peak-torque into consideration (~5,500 rpm). You'll see at 1.8/2.2 your timing goes (starting at 5,000rpm) 6º to 9º to 13º to 16º. Those I would consider large jumps, going 3º every 500rpm, especially at peak torque. My tune (E85) has a higher overall number, but much smaller jumps every 500rpm. IIRC it's jumping 1º every 500rpm where yours is jumping 3-4.


EDIT: just as a quick comparison to my E85 timing curve, do not (!) attempt to duplicate these numbers, a tuner must tune their own car under all circumstances. This is running 24.6psi on a 16G, mods in profile. No knock.

starting at 2k, every 500rpm.

2k
3,6,8,10,13,14,15,16,18,19,19,19
-1,3,4, 6, 6, 6, 6, 9, 13,13,16,16

 

[snooopy365]

Just my opinion but I'm running tons of more timing

*checking my log*

don'T have low rpm numbers because my only log right now is an drag-racing log

5500rpm = 18°
6000rpm = 19°
6500rpm = 21°
7000rpm = 23°
7500rpm = 25°
8000rpm = 26°

at the dyno I did run ~2° less and made 287whp with 16G Evo3 Turbo @ 18psi.

I would think that an 2G with that small turbo should be able to run at least this kind of timing.
Compression in my engine is about 8.3:1 so that shouldn't be much different from a stock 2G.

If you want to be on the save side: Aim for 23° at your highest rpm.
And I would suggest to run ~15° around 4000rpm.

Keep AFR between 12.5-11.5.
That should give you some improvement!

 

[Calan]

You can't toss out timing numbers without a reference to a specific AFR at any given load/RPM, and even then it's pretty useless. Best torque at each load point is made at a specific combination of timing and AFR...which is different for every car and determined by fuel, knock threshold, engine VE, etc.

One person may make best torque at an AFR of 11.5:1 and 20* timing, and another may make the same power at 12.0:1 and 15* advance. The actual timing curve can also differ greatly depending on the turbo spool characteristics and VE of the engine.

But I admit that it is nice to get a look at other similar tunes once in a while as a point of reference. In fact, I wish there were more people running around on 2.3L's with an HX40 hanging off the EM.

If you want to be on the save side: Aim for 23° at your highest rpm.

I doubt that most people would see any gains going above 20 or 21* of max advance; at least not any gains that would be worth it.

FWIW... with my car I would leave melted pistons and bent rods up and down the road if I even approached 20*, no matter what the AFR. And being on E85 I would never see it coming unless I happened to see the EGT gauge bouncing off of 1800*.

 

[snooopy365]

You can't toss out timing numbers without a reference to a specific AFR at any given load/RPM, and even then it's pretty useless. Best torque at each load point is made at a specific combination of timing and AFR...which is different for every car and determined by fuel, knock threshold, engine VE, etc.

One person may make best torque at an AFR of 11.5:1 and 20* timing, and another may make the same power at 12.0:1 and 15* advance. The actual timing curve can also differ greatly depending on the turbo spool characteristics and VE of the engine.

But I admit that it is nice to get a look at other similar tunes once in a while as a point of reference. In fact, I wish there were more people running around on 2.3L's with an HX40 hanging off the EM.

That is so true.

but to get a direction how much timing is necessary, comparing timing maps is a good thing.

I assume he is running a stock 2G engine with an T28 so running ~24° peak shouldn't be that wrong.

But its just a direction, you have to tune every engine individually.
Running big turbos is a different story ... than this much timing would defiantly kill your engine.

running "to much" timing with E85 and small turbos isn't that destructive at all, its just loosing power.
Thats how I found my 26° peak, just trying more timing until power drops.

I'm not that scared of timing after tuning a 4G63 NT last year, that thing was making peak power with even more timing.

 

[Calan]

I would shoot for around 17*, and then go up in 1* or 2* increments while watching torque output. When torque stops increasing linearly with timing advance, you've reached MBT. Back off a degree or two and call it good.

The problem with excessive timing on E85 is that at some point, the likelihood of melted parts goes up faster than the power increase.

 

[snooopy365]

I would shoot for around 17*, and then go up in 1* or 2* increments while watching torque output. When torque stops increasing linearly with timing advance, you've reached MBT. Back off a degree or two and call it good.

The problem with excessive timing on E85 is that at some point, the likelihood of melted parts goes up faster than the power increase.

ok thats a a saver way than directly going to 22-24°
So YES do it like calan says

And always watch your AFR! It changes while you add timing!

 

[bastarddsm]

On E85 you'll want about 3to4 degrees more timing in the high load areas. It might take 10 to get it to knock but you might get past mbt.

At 35psi on my setup at 12afrs I was at 16* at 7000

 

[sbeck]

I am only tuning using afratioest in link right now with afr at 11:1. I am getting a catback made at a muffler shop tomorrow and just installed my 3" downpipe and they are adding a bung for the aem wideband I have.