Cam Specs - Knowledge Please!

[insanewayne]

Looking at some regrinds that are supposed to be better then the 272's....I want FP2's, but this guy says these are the shit, and they come with a 5 year warranty.

I know all about cam theory etc...I just don't know how a cam would perform by looking at the specs.

So if there are any guru's out there, or if you really know your cam shit, please help me out.

Primary Intake: @.050 201 degree, adv. 280 degree, lift .383

Secondary intake: @.050 194 degree adv. 270 degree, lift .386

Exhaust: @.050 190 degree, adv. 266degree lift .386

Thanks for your time.

Wayne

 

[dsm-onster]

Looking at some regrinds that are supposed to be better then the 272's....I want FP2's, but this guy says these are the shit, and they come with a 5 year warranty.

I know all about cam theory etc...I just don't know how a cam would perform by looking at the specs.

So if there are any guru's out there, or if you really know your cam shit, please help me out.

Primary Intake: @.050 201 degree, adv. 280 degree, lift .383

Secondary intake: @.050 194 degree adv. 270 degree, lift .386

Exhaust: @.050 190 degree, adv. 266degree lift .386

Thanks for your time.

Wayne

If your setup merits 272s or FP2s or you plan on running a set up that will respond to the characteristics of these well know grinds, then this is not the set of cams for you...

These cams have lower lift than the fp2s and less duration. more lift = more air. peroid.

As for the duration: it changes your power band mostly. higher duration means more power up top less down low...BUT, here's the absolute basics of how it works:

Duration causes the volumetric efficiency to change through out the rpm range. Volumetric efficiency is simply the amount of air that actually enters the cylinder divided by the amount of air that theoretically should go in the cylinder. Theoretically, 2.0 liters of air should enter our 4G63s at one complete crank rotation. However, only 40%, 60%, 90% actually get into the block. As you can see the more air we get in the more power we can make at any give power stroke. Volumetric efficiency is based on lift, number of valves, exhaust, turbine housing/wheel, intake mani, valve size, and on and on. Lower duration gives you high VE (volumetric efficiency) at lower rpms. Higher duration gives you high VE (volumetric efficiency) at higher rpms. The more you rev, the more air your pumping in and out of the engine per unit time. This translates to a pound per minute figure. The more lbs/min you have the more power you create. This is in part why the little 1.3 liter RX8 engine is able to generate over 200 horsepower or 900cc bike engines can create 90-100 horsepower.​

So you have more flow from revving and add cam duration that gives you the most VE you can get with your setup, and you have substancially more power without increasing lift or porting or adding more valves or enlarging valves. These cams have less duration.

What is up with the primary intake/ secondary intake thing? Is this Vtec sh!t or something? Or maybe MIVEC? Is this a cam profile designed for an EVOIV? The DSM 4G63 has no primay and secondary intake cam patterns. Just one.

These cams have a lower duration than either of the well know and well tested cams. If you go higher than the duration of HKS 272s or FP2s then there will be a price to pay. You have to chip your car to rev beyond the stock revlimit to fulliy utilize the entire power band and you'll need valvetrain hardware that will stand up to the challenge.

If you want more cam. I suggest FP2Xs. They have more lift and higher ramp rate than FP2s (which are designed to mirror 272s in performance). FP cams are substancially cheaper than hks. Get a set of Manley springs like I did with the difference in cash and you can rev to 8500 all day long and have plenty of duration for power up top.

 

[insanewayne]

SCM-6152E, Ported SBR 7cm2 manifold, 2.5" O2 housing w/Tial 46mm, 24x12x3 FMIC, HKS SSQV, Aeromotive AFPR, 785's, ACT 2600+Kinetic Street Disc+Fidanza, Walbro 255 MAF-T+3" GM MAF, FP2's, Eprom ECU with Editor/burner, 3" exhaust, 2.5" Intake, all going on as we speak.

So I can make my own "chips"...so that's no worry...

So basically these cams will not out perform the 272's??....

Looks like I'll be going with some FP2's....good thing I like Kraft Dinner.

 

[dsm-onster]

SCM-6152E, Ported SBR 7cm2 manifold, 2.5" O2 housing w/Tial 46mm, 24x12x3 FMIC, HKS SSQV, Aeromotive AFPR, 785's, ACT 2600+Kinetic Street Disc+Fidanza, Walbro 255 MAF-T+3" GM MAF, FP2's, Eprom ECU with Editor/burner, 3" exhaust, 2.5" Intake, all going on as we speak.

So I can make my own "chips"...so that's no worry...

So basically these cams will not out perform the 272's??....

Looks like I'll be going with some FP2's....good thing I like Kraft Dinner.

I wouldn't scrimp here, if you have the above turbo with good ecu control. The 1G intake head combo doesn't lose all that much flow up top... So an investment in the valvetrain would be very worth while. Don't scrimp here. Not including the turbo, this is where you'll get the most horsepower per dollar invested with a 1G. I suggest the FP2Xs (same price as fp2s), and add 120 bones for Manley springs so that you can run them reliably to 8500+ rpms and be done with your cam upgrades for ever. With your above setup expect to break your stock tranny with stickies.

 

[insanewayne]

Funny you mention that.

I just started writing some thing down, to make the install a little more organized.

Got me thinking. I'll probably pull the head, toss in some ARP head studs, a metal HG, some better springs, and the FP2x's (never heard of the X's, I'll look into them right now).

I planned on rebuilding the entire motor after this summer...but if I want it to last, and be able to really have some fun with this setup, I'll AT LEAST need the ARP's and a metal HG.

Good thing I like MR. Noodles......

I don't see the Manley Springs on the FP site. Only the 350$ dual spring kit.

Will the Manley's hold the ramp rate of the X's?

Oh, and yeh, they won't be trannies when I'm done with them, they'll be frag grenades.

 

[dsm-onster]

Funny you mention that.

I just started writing some thing down, to make the install a little more organized.

Got me thinking. I'll probably pull the head, toss in some ARP head studs, a metal HG, some better springs, and the FP2x's (never heard of the X's, I'll look into them right now).

I planned on rebuilding the entire motor after this summer...but if I want it to last, and be able to really have some fun with this setup, I'll AT LEAST need the ARP's and a metal HG.

Good thing I like MR. Noodles......

I don't see the Manley Springs on the FP site. Only the 350$ dual spring kit.

Will the Manley's hold the ramp rate of the X's?

Stock composite head gaskets have gotten guys to the 10s and over 500whp w/ arp head studs. Besides, you need to resurface the head and deck the block (both surfaces have to be absolutely flat), or chances are that you'll get a leak. I've been running arps and a stock head gasket for years and boosting to 22-23 psi daily with my old 18g. I will be running more boost with my 60-1 soon and will not be going to a metal gasket. As so many of these guys are getting away with it with ARP hardware. You'll have a setup very comparable to mine. Just saving you a little cash here for your Ramen diet .

Oh, I got my Manley springs from Slow Boy Racing. I asked them specifically about the FP2Xs. They said:

"This entire year, we have run comp 101400's[very similar to fp2x=>my insert] on both SBR cars, shifted at 9k in my car, and a little over 10k in Nate's car with no issues with Manley S&R kit. Nate did miss a shift once, data recorded 11.5k and Nate did tap a few valves. Not certain if dual springs would have prevented or not...

8500 is a breeze!

MGH"​

As I said, I run them with my FP2Xs on a daily driver with an 8500 rpm rev limit. And she revs smooth, quick, and strong all the way to 8500 over and over again... 2000 miles on the set up so far. If there were a problem, it would have cropped up by now.

 

[CanadianTSi]

My FP2x's just left FP yesterday and my Manley Springs and Retainers should be in tomorrow...can't wait.

 

[dsm-onster]

My FP2x's just left FP yesterday and my Manley Springs and Retainers should be in tomorrow...can't wait.

HAHA! an eprom w/ a little bit bigger injectors (higher revlimit maybe) and a little more boost w/ your 50-trim and you're on your way to a Shep tranny!

Awesome. post reviews. It seams like me and only one other is running these. They'll probably be the cam upgrade soon. Like the 272s were.

 

[CanadianTSi]

HAHA! an eprom w/ a little bit bigger injectors (higher revlimit maybe) and a little more boost w/ your 50-trim and you're on your way to a Shep tranny!

Exactly what I was thinking

And reviews and such will come in the spring, although I am doing a bunch of stuff at the same time so it will be hard to tell the difference just the cams made.

As a side note HKS is coming out with 280's for DSM's in march

 

[Staytuned]

Hmmm HKS 280's. I'll add those to my list.

 

[92awddsm]

will be running more boost with my 60-1 soon and will not be going to a metal gasket. As so many of these guys are getting away with it with ARP hardware. You'll have a setup very comparable to mine. Just saving you a little cash here for your Ramen diet .

Oh, I got my Manley springs from Slow Boy Racing. I asked them specifically about the FP2Xs. They said:

"This entire year, we have run comp 101400's[very similar to fp2x=>my insert] on both SBR cars, shifted at 9k in my car, and a little over 10k in Nate's car with no issues with Manley S&R kit. Nate did miss a shift once, data recorded 11.5k and Nate did tap a few valves. Not certain if dual springs would have prevented or not...

8500 is a breeze!

MGH"​

As I said, I run them with my FP2Xs on a daily driver with an 8500 rpm rev limit. And she revs smooth, quick, and strong all the way to 8500 over and over again... 2000 miles on the set up so far. If there were a problem, it would have cropped up by now.

You think you will be running more boost but very unlikely on pump gas. Been there done that. It doesnt work very well unless you tune is absolutely perfect. I have run cometic hg on many engines with only the head surfaced, arp studs, and not touching the block with 100% success. So why are you afraid of an mls or cometic gasket?

I have also researched and the fp 2x is real close to the 101400 as far as lift but lobe profile is a lot different. The x's have a lot quicker ramp speed and more duration which will wreck havoc on the valve springs. I would go to the fp 4's and stay away from the x's untill you go with a stroker and better valve springs. And besides, the x series fp cams were designed to work best on the 2.3 and 2.4, not the 2.0. The fp 4 was designed more for the extreme 2.0. You can get away with the x's on a single sping setup but by the end of the year, seat pressure and open pressure will diminish dramaticaly.

Sping issues usually dont come immediately, it takes time, fatigue, and stress before the valve springs become a noticable issu

I bet after 6k miles, you can pull them and stats barely exceed stock spring specs.

Anyway, I suggest fp3's or 4's and manley springs. If you decide to go with x cams, go with sbi or ferrea dual springs for longevity.

 

[CanadianTSi]

Straight from FP

"FPCam2x
Dual valve springs recommended. This "x" version of the FPCam2 increases valve acceleration and valve dwell near max lift to increase torque and widen the power band. Similar to the FPCam3 but not specifically designed with 100mm stroke crankshafts in mind."

 

[92awddsm]

Straight from FP

"FPCam2x
Dual valve springs recommended. This "x" version of the FPCam2 increases valve acceleration and valve dwell near max lift to increase torque and widen the power band. Similar to the FPCam3 but not specifically designed with 100mm stroke crankshafts in mind."

The x profiles are not specifically for the 100mm stroke but work better with it. Anyway, look at his mod list and tell me again why you would go with the x cams.:

Bolt-On Mods DIY intake 2.5 turbo back


Parts Wishlist RS60T or similar turbo, just put that one ### it's really cheap right now and can support past 500hp 800cc injectors, 255lph HO, 3" turbular o2 housing, 3 turbo back, 272's, dsmlink, and one day ross/pauter

 

[CanadianTSi]

I never suggested anything...

 

[insanewayne]

I got no problem with helpin anyone and everyone, but I posted the Question...so can we discuss my mod list a little....? hahaha.

Anyways....so I won't be going with the regrinds then, I like the specs on the FP2X's, and to clear things up again, I will quote FP.

"Finally, full technical details on all the FPCamshafts. It is truly a great day when you can take your pick of over a dozen cam grinds to fit WHATEVER unique application you are putting together. That's right; it is now possible to match any intake camshaft to any exhaust camshaft!
Some introduction - The FPCam1 and FPCam2 perform very much like the HKS 264 and 272 grinds. The FPCam3 was designed with the requirements of stroker engines in mind and result in large increases in midrange HP and torque compared to the FPCam2 with the 100mm stroke.

What does the "X" mean? Once a comfortable limit on valve acceleration was established with our dual spring kit, it was possible to generate versions of the FPCam1, 2 and 3 that took advantage of this new found spring tension. The "X" versions of the Cams are the result. They bump up the valve acceleration rate and toss on a little extra lift for good measure. "

The FP 1 & 2 are for 2.0L applications, the 3 and 4 grinds are for strokers. 4 being a slightly less aggressive grind then the 3.

Money is wery tight with all that shit I just bought, I'm trying to decide wether I should leave the head stock till I can REALLY afford to pop it off and do the springs, cams, ARP's etc. Or if I should wait even longer till I can afford the entire build with forged bottom end etc. Might even go for a 2.4.....so many descisions.....

Or just max out the credit card, pay the minimum payment each month, and do the head work now....

 

[dsm-onster]

The x profiles are not specifically for the 100mm stroke but work better with it. Anyway, look at his mod list and tell me again why you would go with the x cams.:

The only difference between the 2 and the 2X is the ramp rate and lobe height. If it is the same grind as a cam designed with the 2.0 in mind and the only things changed were how quickly the valved opened and how far it opened, then I would surely say it is a better grind for the 2.0 and would net more horsepower. That little 2.0 needs the valve open as quick and high as possible to get as much air in it as possible?

So are you saying, as compared to the FP2, that the FP2X will net more power, less power, or negligible?

 

[dsm-onster]

You think you will be running more boost but very unlikely on pump gas. Been there done that. It doesnt work very well unless you tune is absolutely perfect.

Water injection does magical things. I've seen it done with water injection so I know it is possible. And as for probability: we will see.

I have run cometic hg on many engines with only the head surfaced, arp studs, and not touching the block with 100% success. So why are you afraid of an mls or cometic gasket?

That's what I said. Resurface the head or the block or perhaps both... but one should be done.

I have also researched and the fp 2x is real close to the 101400 as far as lift but lobe profile is a lot different. The x's have a lot quicker ramp speed and more duration which will wreck havoc on the valve springs. I would go to the fp 4's and stay away from the x's untill you go with a stroker and better valve springs. And besides, the x series fp cams were designed to work best on the 2.3 and 2.4, not the 2.0. The fp 4 was designed more for the extreme 2.0. You can get away with the x's on a single sping setup but by the end of the year, seat pressure and open pressure will diminish dramaticaly.

Sping issues usually dont come immediately, it takes time, fatigue, and stress before the valve springs become a noticable issu

I bet after 6k miles, you can pull them and stats barely exceed stock spring specs.

We'll see.

 

[scottsee]

On a side note: You guys know way to much about this stuff. Keep it up.

 

[nanokpsi]

The fp2x are not that close to the comp 101400s. The lifts are very similar, but the 2x have a good bit less duration and less aggressive ramp rates. The 400s/fp4s are more agressive than the fp3/300s, the 2xs are less agressive than the 3s/300s. The 2xs have more aggressive ramp rates compared to the normal fp2s, not all of the non "x" cams.

Designing a cam for the 100mm stroke lets you run a more agressive cam, as the motor will tolerate it better (less stalling, drivability issues).

As far as spring selection, there was a problem with the ferrea springs and retainers "wearing out" so I for damn sure wouldn't choose a set of valve springs for my daily driver by what one company runs on thier race car.

 

[insanewayne]

Wrong.

The FP1's and FP2's are for the 88mm crank, the FP3's and 4's are for the 100mm Crank.

The FP3 is the most aggresive grind of them all. The FP4 is like a 264, but for the strokers. (Just a way of looking at it)

The X designates a steeper ramp rate, which increases the speed that the valve opens and closes, and how long it is open for (duration).

 

[nanokpsi]

Wrong.

The FP1's and FP2's are for the 88mm crank, the FP3's and 4's are for the 100mm Crank.

The FP3 is the most aggresive grind of them all. The FP4 is like a 264, but for the strokers. (Just a way of looking at it)

The X designates a steeper ramp rate, which increases the speed that the valve opens and closes, and how long it is open for (duration).

My information comes directly from Robert Young, the president of Forced Performance. The 3x is the most aggressive cam they make/have made, followed by the fp4. The difference between the fp3 and fp4 is smaller than the difference between the fp4 and the fp3x.

The fp 2x has a more agressive ramp rate then the normal fp2, not than all of their non "x" cams.

The ramp rate has nothing to do with duration. Its just how quickly and how long the valve "rests" near full lift. You can't tell by looking at the cam card, so I just have to go by what Robert told me about the pecking order of the cams. I included the information I got from Robert in the fp cam threads, including the one I started when I got my comp 101400s.

What I wrote about the displacement is definately true. Eventhough the 3x may have been designed for the 100mm crank, it will still make more power in the 2.0 car than the fp2x. It will just have more driveability issues (stalling, difficulty idling, etc.)

 

[insanewayne]

Well then, I was just reading from the site, so I stand corrected.

 

[nanokpsi]

Well then, I was just reading from the site, so I stand corrected.

Don't worry about it. That is why we come here. A lot of people helped me years ago when I was new to all of this so I figure I need to do the same. Keep in mind any of these cams will be a vast improvement over stock

 

[sweet97]

I just added Crower Stage 4's yesterday. Also known as 415's. The HKS 272's I took out have 213* duration at .050" and lifts are .406"/.386". The Crowers have 218*/216* and .425"/.416" lifts. Still idle at 950-1000 and vacuum went from 10-12" to 8-10". Nice but NASTY idle. Won't be able to drive on them until April or until the snow melts but should be a nice compliment to the JM SMIM I also added. Mark