cam performance/gains

[DJYoshaBYD]

I have done some searching and cannot find what I am looking for... What kind of gains or differences in performance do you see with aftermarket cams in the car... I dont care if its HKS or Crower or whatever, I would just like people who use aftermarket cams to chime in and tell us your experience with your setup, good or bad... Just trying to figure out if I want cams in my 1g yet

 

[B-lackGSX99]

My cams (272/272 HKS) caused a mild loss in low end torque, but totally helped me to max out my 20g turbo. The gains you get in your higher rpm's are substantial (assuming you have the supporting mods to capture these gains), a wider useable powerband also makes it entirely worthwhile. I found good gains because the performance cams forced my intake cycle to overlap my exhaust cycle a great deal more, although this did (in my case) result in a bit of a rough idle. In all reality though, I love the sound of my idle combined with my straight 3' piping...you almost get a nice muscle car sound, the 'ol "blom blom blom blom" thing. Anyways, by leaving the intake valve open a little longer, the momentum of the fast-moving air/fuel continues to force air/fuel into the cylinder as the piston starts its compression stroke. So the higher rpm's I brought the engine to, the faster the air/fuel moved, and the longer the intake valve would stay open. Ultimately way more motive-energy, for my very very motive-energy-hungry car. I know a lot of others may disagree, but I feel a good set of cams should be a big part of the foundation when it comes to modding out your car. I chose the 227/272 camshaft because to me, they represented the best set that sit right on the fence between street/race use.

When I first got the cams put in, it took me a little bit to get used to the loss of low end torque. I found that if i was to pull out of my parkade (going from dead stop to slow controlled curved incline because I didn't want to bottom out) I really had to get the clutch/gas combo just right. Too little and the car would bog, shudder, and eventually stall...too much and the car would kick too hard and scrape my muffler on the incline. I experienced this bog and shudder any time I had the car in a gear that was too high for the speed I was going (the gear had typically been fine for said speed previous to the camshaft change). So, for example, if i was just barely rolling, the synchro wouldn't let me put it into first, but in second the car would just bog and shudder due to a total lack of enough low end torque. I would either have to rev it up and dump the clutch, come to a total stop and put it into first, or jam it HARD into first and continue from the roll.

It is important to note that these issues could easily have been the result of something in combination with my cams, although I do believe my cams play a large part in why my car drives the way it does. The reality still stands, i've become entirely used to the way it drives and have absolutely no problem since that first week of driving it post-camshaft install. Best of luck.

 

[DJYoshaBYD]

interesting... thanks... anyone else?

 

[stewy612]

yes, anyone else?

 

[JayRolla]

He pretty much sumed it up. You will gain top end and loose bottom end. Depending on the size cam you can gain more up top. Cams need to be matched with a turbo also. To large of a cam will cause your turbo to be overrun and can hurt performance.

Cant find the link but a company tested the 264/272 combo against the 272/272 combo on a 16g powered car. I remember both combos added about the same hp but the 272/272 had a little less torque. But if they where running a larger turbo the 272/272 combo would yield more power.

 

[pooker]

A 20g with comp 101200's showed and felt amazing with my car. With the right setup you will always see a gain with the right pair of cams, even if that gain is minimal.

 

[Calan]

I'm still tuning after major mods and so forth, but my FP's (264/272 combo) and EvoIII 16g pull like a raped ape right up to red line (and I'm still at fairly low boost...10-15psi until I get everything dialed in for knock on cheap gas).

Granted, I've done a lot of other little things, but the small 16g and stock cams I had before would start falling flat at around 5500-6000 if I remember correctly.

 

[96gstdsm]

I'm still tuning after major mods and so forth, but my FP's (264/272 combo) and EvoIII 16g pull like a raped ape right up to red line (and I'm still at fairly low boost...10-15psi until I get everything dialed in for knock on cheap gas).

Granted, I've done a lot of other little things, but the small 16g and stock cams I had before would start falling flat at around 5500-6000 if I remember correctly.

How is the low end power? Did you have stock cams with this set up first? When are you seeing full boost? When does it feel to really start hitting?

 

[esoung]

it all depends on which manufacture of cams you get. 264/272, 272/272, or 280/280 is only the durations of the cams. you got to look into 0.050 durations and the lift. they different for each manufacture.

 

[Calan]

Low end power (800-2k) is "streetable", but not huge. Feels about the same as it always has.

I didn't run the stock cams with the new mani/turbo/o2 housing... so I can't really compare the cams separately.

Full boost usually seems to hit somewhere between 3k and 3.5k, depending on which gear and the engine load. By 4 to 4.5k, you're sucked back into the seat and it stays that way until red line.

I'm still trying to get everything dialed in though, so I don't know yet where I can end up. I'm mostly just battling this summer heat and trying to get consistent performance with 91 pump and water/alky injection.

 

[JayRolla]

How is the low end power? Did you have stock cams with this set up first? When are you seeing full boost? When does it feel to really start hitting?

Usually where the cam shines is above 5-6k rpm. What they do is shift your power band a little higher.

 

[96gstdsm]

Usually where the cam shines is above 5-6k rpm. What they do is shift your power band a little higher.

So this is the 264/272 set you are talking about? I bought(maybe too fast) bc 272's for my big 16g turbo. So if the 264/272 combo shines around 5-6k rpm's then where is the 272's gonna shine? I am not looking for number rather just fun and not too much lag. Will stock cams have any better performance over the 264's or 272's low or mid rpm levels? I know high end power will be much better with either cams.

 

[h8r]

As stated the 272/272 280/280 etc...really are only used to name the cams..... The @.50 tell the story.. Also each cam manufacturer uses different lobes ( changing the way the cam idles performs and so forth) You can have two cams that are 272 duration.. but depending on advance, LSA, ICL, they may performe very different. A cam with a higher LSA will idle more smoothly(less overlap) a cam with short lsa (more overlap) will idle choppy and race car like.

 

[BoostFrenzy]

I'm still tuning after major mods and so forth, but my FP's (264/272 combo) and EvoIII 16g pull like a raped ape right up to red line (and I'm still at fairly low boost...10-15psi until I get everything dialed in for knock on cheap gas).

Granted, I've done a lot of other little things, but the small 16g and stock cams I had before would start falling flat at around 5500-6000 if I remember correctly.

I have not heard of a lot of people that run combo FP cams. Are you running regular or X cams? Im really looking into a FP1x/FP2x combo. Wondering if this is at all possible. I know i will need dual springs with it but i would do that with any cam setup just for safety. I too am on the good ol' Evo3. And like the OP i would like to know what kind of performance increase i can expect from a "264/272" combo (because FP2X are just a tad higher). "Raped Ape"...i like the way that sounds

 

[Calan]

They are the plain FP1/FP2 variety. This friggin oklahoma heat (and my engine temps) are making it hard to get rid of knock, even with the alky/water... of course I'm still learning and experimenting... but the car pulls pretty good. The power is smooth and consistent, with only a little lope at idle. I'm also working on dialing in a new ported TB, but my idle sits between 800-950 right now.

I don't have much to compare this to since I've done so much to fix problems and upgrade stuff, but I'm pretty happy with it. I took a 15yr DSM vet from around here for a ride and he was "a bit jealous of my DD" and had a big smile on his face He said riding with me didn't quite scare him... but almost

 

[BoostFrenzy]

I don't have much to compare this to since I've done so much to fix problems and upgrade stuff, but I'm pretty happy with it. I took a 15yr DSM vet from around here for a ride and he was "a bit jealous of my DD" and had a big smile on his face He said riding with me didn't quite scare him... but almost

I know the feeling. My friends GSX over here in santa monica...its a monster. Im sure that vet would be crapping them self. Right now, my tune isnt perfect. its rather ruff actually. so my dyno was on that ruff tune. at my 16 PSI alone, the dyno guy said there was at least another 15hp in it with a better tune. Im glad to actually find someone who is running combo FP. Any thoughts on how the combo FPx's would run? i'd hope it would be similar. So for you, im guessing the good old butt dyno gives the combo a good 2 thumbs up

 

[Calan]

Yeah... once I get it tuned to the best of my (limited) ability, I'll probably take it over to Able Racing and get some actual numbers.

No idea on the Fpx's... they just seemed a bit much for me since I wasn't going to be doing any head upgrades right away. Based on my experience with FP in general though, I'm guessing they would work as advertised and be worth the money in the right situation. Good people down there in McKinney from what I have seen.

For now, the butt dyno is happy as long as I can keep the knock managable

 

[BoostFrenzy]

thanks for your input. yeah i have only hear good things about FP so i know they are the place to go for good quality parts. hope you will make some good numbers. Again thanks.

 

[NavyP583]

i had put my cams in last of all my mods. i drove it before and after and id have to say it was like night and day difference. Now on low boost 15psi the tires break loose at the top of second gear and hi boost is almost pointless till 3rd. and pulls non stop till 7500. I have a pretty much stock valvetrain too on the hks 272/272's. Now i just need an lsd and better clutch for my power.

 

[96gstdsm]

i had put my cams in last of all my mods. i drove it before and after and id have to say it was like night and day difference. Now on low boost 15psi the tires break loose at the top of second gear and hi boost is almost pointless till 3rd. and pulls non stop till 7500. I have a pretty much stock valvetrain too on the hks 272/272's. Now i just need an lsd and better clutch for my power.

How is the power like under 4k rpm's? When are you hitting full boost? What turbo is this with? how does the low end power feel compared to the stock cams? Does it seem to hit hard right away? Does it feel like it hits harder or less than with the stock cams?

Ah just saw this was with an fpgreen turbo. Guess it wont really relate to me then. I have a big16g turbo.

 

[dsm-onster]

I'm sure all of this has been aready mentioned. But, just to reinforce. .

I run FP2Xs. Upgrading cams did several things. The power band was higher. This means that I have better volumetric efficiency at a higher rpm level. More peak power simply from higher duration, comes from the fact that the more rotations per minute the more volume displaced by the piston. If you can ahve more cylinder filling (VE) at a higher rpm then you're goign to have much more peak horsepower.

But, I did not lose any power from 2K-4K. There is much more lift and much more overlap w/ all aftermarket cams than stock. The overlap yields quicker spool up. And more lift yields more flow no matter what rpm. Thus, a really *hard* hitting mid range.

Also, my power band is broader. From 4K to (for me) 8.5K. For a stock redline that comes out to 4500 rpms of MUCH more VE. I felt my stock cams peter out at around 5.5K Stock cams are designed to have a peak torque at around 3K and peak hp at around 6K. That comes out to around a 3-3.5K powerband.

More peak power, broader powerband. And for fun a harder hitting "street driving" (mid) range.

 

[96gstdsm]

I'm sure all of this has been aready mentioned. But, just to reinforce. .

I run FP2Xs. Upgrading cams did several things. The power band was higher. This means that I have better volumetric efficiency at a higher rpm level. More peak power simply from higher duration, comes from the fact that the more rotations per minute the more volume displaced by the piston. If you can ahve more cylinder filling (VE) at a higher rpm then you're goign to have much more peak horsepower.

But, I did not lose any power from 2K-4K. There is much more lift and much more overlap w/ all aftermarket cams than stock. The overlap yields quicker spool up. And more lift yields more flow no matter what rpm. Thus, a really *hard* hitting mid range.

Also, my power band is broader. From 4K to (for me) 8.5K. For a stock redline that comes out to 4500 rpms of MUCH more VE. I felt my stock cams peter out at around 5.5K Stock cams are designed to have a peak torque at around 3K and peak hp at around 6K. That comes out to around a 3-3.5K powerband.

More peak power, broader powerband. And for fun a harder hitting "street driving" (mid) range.

In my thread I started asking about cam gears etc, you had mentioned how when you had the stock cams it was the most fun you have had in your car. With the aftermarket cams it won't feel as hard hitting? For a daily driver then would you suggest selling the 272's and sticking with the stock cams? Like I had said before I don't care about a higher number when it comes to hp, just want it to feel really fast. Want it to hit really hard and pull really hard for daily driving. Not doing any drag racing or anything. Obviously also not doing much or any launching being fwd either. I have just been hearing two different sides to the 272's. A lot of people have been saying that they will be too big really as to where I can benefit much from them with a 16g. I have no intentions of upgrading my turbo ever. At least until I get an awd dsm. So if the whole argument is taken away saying how it will be good cause there is room to grow into, would it still be logical to go with the bc 272's? I already bought them so gotta decide before I can have my head built if I want the cams in it or not. I don't want to buy adjustable cam gears to assist the cams either. So that being accounted for also does it make sense to keep them?
Also I am going straight from a lightly modded t25 set up to a full stage 2 upgraded car. So would think I will be in for a nice surprise in power to begin with as I have never owned a fast car before really.

 

[esoung]

As stated the 272/272 280/280 etc...really are only used to name the cams..... The @.50 tell the story.. Also each cam manufacturer uses different lobes ( changing the way the cam idles performs and so forth) You can have two cams that are 272 duration.. but depending on advance, LSA, ICL, they may performe very different. A cam with a higher LSA will idle more smoothly(less overlap) a cam with short lsa (more overlap) will idle choppy and race car like.

does anyone know what the specs are on the HKS 264/272, i.e. LSA? i currently have those cams, they're choppy as hell, but i want to upgrade 272/272 or 280/280. i want to compared HKS with other cam manfactures, but HKS keeps it's spec a secret.

 

[420a-t]

I am also looking for cams. I don't want to waste my money on 264/272 combo if I can get the 272's for the same price but, after reading this, I think that combo might be the best for me. I am A/T and don't rev past 6750. I also want to be able to run in the 12-second quarter mile range. So what combo would be best for my rev and a e316g?

 

[dsm-onster]

does anyone know what the specs are on the HKS 264/272, i.e. LSA? i currently have those cams, they're choppy as hell, but i want to upgrade 272/272 or 280/280. i want to compared HKS with other cam manfactures, but HKS keeps it's spec a secret.

I've been told by several different people w/ HKS 272s that they are 213 degrees duration at 0.05" lift. This is all I know for specs. And I could be wrong.