cam performance/gains

[DJYoshaBYD]

I have done some searching and cannot find what I am looking for... What kind of gains or differences in performance do you see with aftermarket cams in the car... I dont care if its HKS or Crower or whatever, I would just like people who use aftermarket cams to chime in and tell us your experience with your setup, good or bad... Just trying to figure out if I want cams in my 1g yet

 

[dsm-onster]

In my thread I started asking about cam gears etc, you had mentioned how when you had the stock cams it was the most fun you have had in your car. With the aftermarket cams it won't feel as hard hitting? For a daily driver then would you suggest selling the 272's and sticking with the stock cams? Like I had said before I don't care about a higher number when it comes to hp, just want it to feel really fast. Want it to hit really hard and pull really hard for daily driving. Not doing any drag racing or anything. Obviously also not doing much or any launching being fwd either. I have just been hearing two different sides to the 272's. A lot of people have been saying that they will be too big really as to where I can benefit much from them with a 16g. I have no intentions of upgrading my turbo ever. At least until I get an awd dsm. So if the whole argument is taken away saying how it will be good cause there is room to grow into, would it still be logical to go with the bc 272's? I already bought them so gotta decide before I can have my head built if I want the cams in it or not. I don't want to buy adjustable cam gears to assist the cams either. So that being accounted for also does it make sense to keep them?
Also I am going straight from a lightly modded t25 set up to a full stage 2 upgraded car. So would think I will be in for a nice surprise in power to begin with as I have never owned a fast car before really.

Hey, I'd PM you to discuss more but I think this still falls in line w/ the theme of the thread. So if the OP doesn't get too angry, i'll post instead.

I think you're a bit nervous. . . And rightly so.

First of all, I think defining such a subjective descriptor as "fun" is going to just confuse. So, I'll just give my experience. I had fun w/ the stock cams (retarded exhaust cam) w/ the small 16g because it has roots blower boost response and I didn't even have to pull the valve cover. I loved the super quick boost and all the things that made the stockish 1g such a great car, but I don't regret the cam purchase because of loosing the thrill of instant boost. It didn't follow through. It was satisfying until I got to the track. You have the cams. Use them. A 14B can put out over 300hp and spool quick as the devil! You have more turbo. Use it.

The fp2X profile has a more linear "pull". Or as they say the cam 'comes on' smoother but clearly pulls MUCH, much harder by 4K. Couple that w/ a more laggy turbo that likes high boost and significant flow and you get a HUGE hit at 4K. To me. . . THIS is fun, too.

I learned in short order that controling that w/ FWD takes mental focus and LOTS of patience for training yourself and LOTS of practice. It lost it's fun w/ the 60-1 / t3 stage3. It got serious when I wanted power and just fluff when I didn't want it. I really liek it but clearly this car is set up for the track, which doesn't bother me at all. The cams contributed to its track-like nature. But, it wasn't the deciding factor. The turbo, cams, intake manifold heat port shape, all have to compliment each other. Not neccesarily peak flow at the same rpm but each help the other reach it's potential. So a set of cams and a small turbo was still very fun for me. Still EXCELLENT boost response (3.2K or so). I lost that instant boost and low rpm torque for a much stronger interstate midrange when swapping cams and running the small 16g and 18g. This is a GOOD thing for FWD. FWD shines here.

As I said, you'll have a wider power band w/ the 272s. It will be higher, but you'll have more power under the curve. More to do work getting your car down the road. It won't be peaky. If you like to lug at 1800 rpms and expect to get a kick in the pants when you punch the gas then, . . . well, you shouldn't have bought a 4 cylinder. You can't make power worthy of a turbo upgrade w/out revving your engine. Why not use a set of cams that like the bigger rpms? I do let others drive my car and I've never had some one say that my car wasn't fun to drive with the FP2Xs (similar to 272s) and the 16g. Thay all LOVED it and begged to take it out again.

The big 16g shows to flow 34 lbs/min on the compressor map. I've got a copy of a log from a guy on the dsmlink forums recording 40 lbs/min (over 400 hp) w/ a clipped turbine wheel Big 16G. The turbo is worthy of a cam upgrade. He was running Comp 101200 cams and a SMIM. Also in his thread there was another guy who reported over 40 lbs/min w/ his unclipped big 16g. And a guy w/ and evo2 16g said that his setup accomplished the same thing. I'm definately not sayign that you'll see these numbers. But, IMHO, 34 lbs/min capability is worthy of a good cam upgrade.

Any other advice we can give you is fluff. I can suggest just getting a set of cam gears and getting the most out of your stock cams but you MAY just feel that they're not enough up top for that follow through. That's another "feeling" that's "fun". You've upgrade from your 'fun little t-2small' for a reason. You have the stocker cams; you have the upgrades. It's not hard to swap them out if it's not your thing. don't get rid of either until you actually get a taste of both. And be fair to the upgrades and get a good tune

 

[96gstdsm]

Ok thanks a lot!! I think that pretty much convinced me to go along with the 272's. Being fwd with the added power I'm sure traction will be an issue in 1st gear especially in lower rpm's anyways. Higher gears I can just down shift to full power. So from your experience by like 3500 or 4k rpm's there is good power being made correct? I know all set ups are slightly different but the average set up should be making good power there right? As long as I dont have to wait till like 5k to make some decent power I am sure I will be happy with the performance. Do you remember when you had your 16g when you starting building boost with the 272's compared to when you had stock cams?
So if I just buy an adjustable exhaust cam gear should that be able to get me maybe a little more mid range since these 272's will be able to rev higher than my turbo can flow? Are there any ill effects of going with just an exhaust cam gear and no adjustable intake cam gear?

I'm sure going from the t25 to this set up the power is going to seem insane to me anyways. Should be approximately doubling the stock whp, and as I have never modded a dsm or any other car really I would think it will blow my mind away regardless.

 

[dsm-onster]

I'm sure going from the t25 to this set up the power is going to seem insane to me anyways. Should be approximately doubling the stock whp, and as I have never modded a dsm or any other car really I would think it will blow my mind away regardless.

Don't expect the moon until you get it dialed in (a/f ratio, timing). . . But, it DEFINATELY will be worth your efforts so far I'm sure. It was for me .

There is absolutely nothing wrong w/ getting just one adjustable cam gear and retarding it for best compromise of mid range and top end. In fact, most do this becasue it's, what, 100 bones for just ONE gear. In fact, I'd run w/ the cams straight up, be patient and get a GOOD tune. Then see how you like it. Before even spending the money on a cam gear. Being FWD you may find the power curve to be ideal.

My setup way back when:
Small 16g / 18G (td05H)
stock 2.0 block
MAFT blowthru
650s, Walbro 255, & AFPR
K & N cone w/ custom cold air intake
SMALL FMIC
crushbent 2.25" exhaust and fart can

From my memory. . .

Stock cams: My small 16g hit at 3000 rpms right on 20psi. Get this: My 18g hit only around 200 rpms later.

Stock cams (retarded exhaust): small 16g hit at 2500-2600 rpms. 18g hit at a hair under 3000 rpms. Can you imagine an evo3 16G hitting 20psi under 3K!?

FP2Xs: small 16g hit 22 psi by 3300 rpms. the 18G hit at the exact same rate!

My tdo5H 18g had the EXACT same hotside (td05h 7 cm^2) as my small 16g. And the same as your hotside. You'll see about the same results.

I'm glad I've helped ease your worries. You have a well reviewed set of cams there. I don't like telling people exactly what my car has done for me becasue even identical setups have shown different results, from my experience.

P.S. Wow! between this thread and your thread, I've typed a rambling book! I just came on looking for info on the td07H turbine

 

[BoostFrenzy]

just remember for ex. 264vs280 the 280 allows the valves to stay open longer than the 264's.
280s are race cams and realistically the 264 are the mild ones. thats why they mix them up sometimes.

uh...the main combo would be a 264/272. not a 264/280. 272's are considered only for pure strip cars but alot of people run them for everything else. 280's are high hp car cams and stroker motor cams because they need to flow that much for those big turbos.

 

[96gstdsm]

Don't expect the moon until you get it dialed in (a/f ratio, timing). . . But, it DEFINATELY will be worth your efforts so far I'm sure. It was for me .


OK well I am going to have it dyno tuned as soon as the engine is broken in. Gonna put at least 500 miles on the new block and all first. Keeping the stock injectors in right now also. I have ecu+ to tune with so that along with some dyno time and an adjustable exhaust cam gear should make it a pretty decent tune. Taking it to a well known dyno place also should be good. Anyone know if most dyno places have wideband o2's to measure a/f when tuning? I don't have one yet and don't really have the money at the moment for another 300 buck purchase.

If they have one then it could be just hooked up to tune no problem right?

Since you were saying that the boost was hitting around 3k even with the upgraded cams sounds pretty awesome to me. I think all my worries are now gone!
I do also have a 3" downpipe as I saw you were saying that would help out a lot with the mid range power with these cams. I also got a ssac fmic so cooling not bad and a 2.5" o2 housing. So spool up should be fine also.


PS. how do you quote small parts of someones post? I can't seem to get the hang of that one.

 

[dsm-onster]

uh...the main combo would be a 264/272. not a 264/280. 272's are considered only for pure strip cars but alot of people run them for everything else. 280's are high hp car cams and stroker motor cams because they need to flow that much for those big turbos.

Yea, 264/272 used to be the "hot mod" a while back. ShapeGSX the first guy around here to get into the 11s w an evo3 16G saw no difference in 1/4 mile ET swapping between 264/272, 272/264, 264s, and 272s. SO many guys run 272s (212-213 duration at .05" lift) on the street now, that I think many would feel that these cams are street cams w/ enough for a good sized turbo. I remember back when guys would say the 50-trim was way too laggy for the street.

 

[nightspeed87]

Usually where the cam shines is above 5-6k rpm. What they do is shift your power band a little higher.

But if your turbo is too small it will also make your boost fall off faster too by increasing the engines ve. Not that that matters so much but just throwing it out there.
For example a T25 will fall on its face trying to keep up with 272s...

I have not heard of a lot of people that run combo FP cams. Are you running regular or X cams? Im really looking into a FP1x/FP2x combo. Wondering if this is at all possible. I know i will need dual springs with it but i would do that with any cam setup just for safety. I too am on the good ol' Evo3. And like the OP i would like to know what kind of performance increase i can expect from a "264/272" combo (because FP2X are just a tad higher). "Raped Ape"...i like the way that sounds

I am going to get the Fp2's, the x's seem nice because of increased ramp rate and etc. btu I dont think i will go that route, not worth the extra money to me considering im not building a race car that needs everything.
I will be running a ported cyclone intake manifold and Im curious if that will pick up some of my torque loss in the low end from cams...

For those who are really concerned about quick spool and low end torque that is what the 2.3 and 2.4 strokers are for

 

[eklypse]

is anybody on here running 264's/272's with a ported head?