Butcher knife edge vs Eagle forged?

[Diamond Star Werks]

The counterweights on a 4G63 crank do not match the weight of the rod/piston combo. This is the case on V engines, but not most inline 4 cylinder engines.

When balancing a 4G63 crank, each counterweight is made equal. Also, each rod and piston should be made equal but the counterweight is not matched to the rod/piston.

Bobweights are not used to balance a 4G63 engine.

I know an oldschooler machinest that built a marine inline 6 engine for a car once. He cut the counter weights off the crank and had it externally balanced. Is that possible to do with a 4g crank?

 

[BogusSVO]

MJ, Yes its possiable. But Why?

Now you have to add weight to both the flywheel and the balancer. So more money is spent on custom one off parts or figuring where and how to install weight.

Like the Butcher crank, cut the weight, then balance the crank internally, that way off the shelf parts can still be used.

Now the old school machinist, may have started with an external balanced engine.

I would guess a chevy 235 or 250CI

 

[bastarddsm]

Inline engines are ballanced by design, and do not need counterweights.

 

[white92talontsi]

I know an oldschooler machinest that built a marine inline 6 engine for a car once. He cut the counter weights off the crank and had it externally balanced. Is that possible to do with a 4g crank?

I would never do that. If that were the case then aftermarket crank designers would have already done it. You need the counter weights.


Moral of this thread is if you plan to make 6-700 hp on a daily driver with a 2.0 then the butcher crank will be fine.

For a 2.3 or a 2.4 I personally would keep the power level below 650 WHP.

Myself and Tim have had experience with these crank's. It is a great crank do not get me wrong but for people pushing these engines past 700 whp and spinning 9500-10,000 RPM it should not be used.

Once you get to the point above if you have the cash to burn on a aftermarket crank then look into a Winberg Crank. I've used 2 of them on builds and can tell you it is hands down the best crank that is available for the 4G. It is not cheap though.

 

[JacksonAuto]

I know an oldschooler machinest that built a marine inline 6 engine for a car once. He cut the counter weights off the crank and had it externally balanced. Is that possible to do with a 4g crank?

I don't believe so. The counterweights on a 4g crank are there to offset the weight of the rod journal. If you remove the counterweight all together, you're out of balance. I would tend to believe that the machinist you've referred to used an externally balanced engine to base his project on.

 

[JacksonAuto]

Inline engines are ballanced by design, and do not need counterweights.

This is not true. Yes, inline engines are balanced. The cranks are "zeroed", however counterweights are used to achieve this. I'm going to assume that you meant to say "bob weights"

 

[spoonman]

CW x A = (CA x B) + (BE + .5 x SE) x C

Formula used to determine crankshaft weight.

The counterweight introduces cyclic bending loads into the crankshaft with every revolution. These cyclic loads increase as the square of the RPM. Each doubling of RPM causes loads and deflections to increase four times.

The counterweights take care of what engineers call "first order effects" as they reduce crankshaft stress and deflection.

 

[Twinturbo120]

Correct me if I'm wrong guys, but wouldn't someone with a 2.3 benefit having a butcher crank?

 

[twicks69]

You actually want more counterweight on the 4g64 crank, they are negative counterweight stock. Especially if you are going to push it above 8600rpm.

I rev my stock 4g64 weight crank to 9200rpm on AL rods. Kiggly is going significantly higher with his auto 2.3 with extra weight on the crank.

 

[ceedawg]

I would never do that. If that were the case then aftermarket crank designers would have already done it. You need the counter weights.


Moral of this thread is if you plan to make 6-700 hp on a daily driver with a 2.0 then the butcher crank will be fine.

For a 2.3 or a 2.4 I personally would keep the power level below 650 WHP.

Myself and Tim have had experience with these crank's. It is a great crank do not get me wrong but for people pushing these engines past 700 whp and spinning 9500-10,000 RPM it should not be used.

Once you get to the point above if you have the cash to burn on a aftermarket crank then look into a Winberg Crank. I've used 2 of them on builds and can tell you it is hands down the best crank that is available for the 4G. It is not cheap though.

Wow,Darren built my 2.0l bottom end with a butcher crank. Still on the engine stand waiting for me to put on the head. My goal was to rev to 8k maybe 8.5 max. Am I going to be ok? Goal is 500 to 550whp max. Thank God we now have a thread giving details on this crank after years of inquiry!

 

[Twinturbo120]

You actually want more counterweight on the 4g64 crank, they are negative counterweight stock. Especially if you are going to push it above 8600rpm.

I rev my stock 4g64 weight crank to 9200rpm on AL rods. Kiggly is going significantly higher with his auto 2.3 with extra weight on the crank.

I'm not going for any crazy hp, just a modest 450hp on a 2.3. I don't think I'll benefit revving high, especially on a 2.3. But thanks for the info

 

[twicks69]

Both of you guys should be just fine with those power levels on a Butcher crank.

 

[Calan]

Both of you guys should be just fine with those power levels on a Butcher crank.

Or a plain ole' non-butchered stock crank for that matter.

 

[bastarddsm]

This is not true. Yes, inline engines are balanced. The cranks are "zeroed", however counterweights are used to achieve this. I'm going to assume that you meant to say "bob weights"

No. I meatnt the do not need any external counter weight to be ballanced like a sbf or anything like that. Either way the still do not need counter weights for ballance due to the syymetry. The counterweight is there to absorb harmonics.

 

[darren]

Hey guys. I couldn't help but notice the word "butcher" pop up in recent posts. Naturally, I'm clicking on it.

There are many things in here you guys need addressed so that you are better informed of our process over here. I just felt there is a lot of tail chasing going on.

So here goes...

 

[thecman02]

Absorb harmonics and change the frequency to safe frequencies that aren't common in normal operation.

I should do a project where I analyze 1st-4th order harmonics on the crankshaft and roughly where these are located.

I can guarantee Mitsubishi engineered these engines to place them low in the rpms where the forces from these harmonics would be lowest. From my understanding you raise the resonant frequencies by removing mass. Any time you are operating around one of these harmonics the stress on all the components in an engine are greatly raised. The lower order harmonics are usually the most violent too so extra care is taken to avoid them.

I'm not saying I completely understand it and can explain it, but millions of dollars worth of structures and machinery has been destroyed by operating at these dreaded frequencies.

Also, there is a reason why we have a harmonic balancer. It absorbs/cancels out much of these dreaded frequencies. I usually recommend Fluidampr for stroker applications since the ATI was created specifically to target specific harmonics of the 2.0 engine. Top race teams usually use ATI because they have the budget and knowledge to tune their harmonic balancer/dampener to combat troubled frequencies in their engine.

 

[darren]

A good stock crank should be fine. If you get used go ahead and have it micro polished, magnafluxed, and have your assembly balanced.
I thought about the lightened "butcher" crank but was worried that on a quick throttle let off that the engine may have problems returning to idle without dying. Keep in mind I have a lightweight aluminum flywheel as well. It may not cause such a bad problem with a stock flywheel.
I went with an Eagle crank but only because I got such a good deal on it. The quality seemed to be very good because when I had it balanced it hardly took any drilling to get it balanced. They even spun balanced to 8k and they said it was spot on and wouldn't worry to spin it to 10k. All my rod assemblies are within a half gram of each other though so I'm sure that helps alot.

Problems with idling you have is an isolated case. You have other issues going on buddy. I've got two stroked full boogie cars sitting on the floor right now in fact with twin discs and alum rods with the Butcher that rev like crotch rockets. Very fun to drive. I'm not even including the cars over the years I haven't had troubles with in the idling/rev department using the Butcher.

If your car is dying when she comes back down, it's in your tune.

 

[darren]

The butcher crank was fun in my old motor, like stated above; it started having jump-roping issues pretty badlt at 750+AWHP. If I kept it around the 650AWHP/600TQ range it didn't have a problem for 3 years. Once I turned the power levels up to the 750+AWHP/700TQ range, then it was chewing out the inner main bearings. The crank literally bent around 0.016" out of round. It was junk. Granted, mine was also a steel rod 4G64 butchered crank setup, running very high boost and running up to 8600rpm.

I also had it with 550g Eagle H-beams and Ross pistons, with a race flywheel QM gear drive twin disk. It revved out VERY FAST, and was freaking awesome. Great motor, just killed the crank.

I would definitely do it again with a STOCK OEM Mitsubishi crank, checked and polished to get your bearing oiling specs, and couple it with R&R aluminum rods, Ross or CP X-Style ultra-light pistons with skirt coatings and 0.220"-wall tool steel wrist pins, L19 or H11 rod bolts, and run aluminum main and rod bearings with the OEM Mitsubishi thrust bearing for your application. Balance the rotating assembly and run it with a Quarter Master Gear-Drive 7.25" V-Drive Rally twin disk clutch assembly and a race-weight flywheel (6#) for cars below 2800#, and street flywheel (10#) for street cars or cars above 2800# as it will significantly help with rotational inertia for starting from dead stops, launching, or uphill stops. Having the heavier flywheel will help with reducing jerkiness of driving a multi-disk clutch, and is worth the tradeoff of extra weight on the assembly. It also helps having a higher rotational inertia with the twin disk as you are less likely to break the springs on the 3/4 and 5/R hub and sliders in the transmission.

Also, go with a Fluidampr or ATI crank harmonic damper. I run the Fluidampr, but people have good luck with the ATI as well. Stay as far away from aftermarket billet aluminum pulleys and OEM crank dampers when you start making real power as they like to seperate themselves. If you start having crank harmonic issues from flex you will also throw the counterweight straight off the OEM crank pulley. , you will also normally take out the crank position sensor on 97-99 motors. Ask me how I know !


OEM crank, light rods, and high quality wrist pins with the proper piston for the job.

That is true Tim! The motor was an animal! But let's not forget that you were also running a 7 bolt Butcher in there. They do exhibit different strength characteristics/harmonics at that power level. Although a fantastic setup, you cannot compare the 7 to the 6 fairly and effectively. Apples and oranges.

I've got competitive class guys right now running in the 8s and 9s using both the stocker Butcher and Eagle Butcher...but both are 6 bolts. No issues for years. That's a lot of pounding.

I can count on one hand how many of those dubious 7 bolts I've personally put together in 8 years...I always push the 6 bolts for handling the mountains of HP for longevity. They're brutes.

The stock crank in itself I tell folks is HARD to beat! But mostly, the people looking to be competitive, the Butcher is the option for them. I love both and both have their places.

In most cases out there, the OEM will fit most folks. if you need a lighter rotational, as one member had said, run with the twin disc setups...often overlooked. Lots of bang for the buck. Alum rods are a plus! Bring them on!

Those that are looking to squeak every ounce of performance from their motor, that's where the Butcher can fill that void with both its reduction in parasitic drag and weight.

End of story.

 

[darren]

Wow,Darren built my 2.0l bottom end with a butcher crank. Still on the engine stand waiting for me to put on the head. My goal was to rev to 8k maybe 8.5 max. Am I going to be ok? Goal is 500 to 550whp max. Thank God we now have a thread giving details on this crank after years of inquiry!

Buddy, I wouldn't have you pay for something and use if I thought it wasn't going to work out for you! I've built many of the same motor you have in over 13 years with NO returns. Think about that! There is A LOT of liability with a motor. It aint no turbocharger.

You don't get that kind of record by recommending something that doesn't work.

 

[darren]

What is "Balanced within spec"? Factory cranks that have been in engines for 100k are better balanced than an Eagle crank fresh out of the box and they are still 5+ grams off... If you want a faster revving engine use quaility light weight parts. Aluminum rods, light pistons, and high compression will make that engine rip.

I agree. Stock cranks have always been balanced pretty well from factory. On the average with OEMs over the years about 2 grams.

Nothing Eagle has put out (or Manley for that matter) has been "in spec" out of the box from what I've been privy to. You best count on fixing it before assembly.

 

[Calan]

Buddy, I wouldn't have you pay for something and use if I thought it wasn't going to work out for you! I've built many of the same motor you have in over 13 years with NO returns. Think about that! There is A LOT of liability with a motor. It aint no turbocharger.

You don't get that kind of record by recommending something that doesn't work.

FWIW -

Although I've never met Darren in person, I have talked to him on the phone a few times and I'm friends with people that know him personally and are running his engines in this area. His reputation is outstanding and well-deserved.

Be grateful for any knowledge or information he is willing to share.

 

[darren]

Darren's butcher crank is a good piece as long as you keep it below 750AWHP. After that the crank will start to bend and eventually break.

We run OEM cranks on our 2.0 Evo's and run 45-50psi and make 900+hp without issues.

The OEM crank's are very strong, If tuned properly a 1,000hp 4g63 will go a year if not more on a stock crank.



As stated higher compression will make the engine more responsive. Couple that with light pistons and aluminum rod's (R&R or BME) and you have a 4G63 that revs like a crotch rocket.

Where did you gather this information from? Putting a power rating on a Butcher? Dude, you have more information than we do apparently. And from how many folks out there did you gather this info from? And were they even using a Butcher?

Again, there are many variables in motor assembly. I've learned that these cars are very inconsistent and what works for one guy doesn't necessarily work as well for the next.

I'm saying that I have many 6 bolt guys running at those 750+ power levels without bending/busting any crank I've sold them. I've got one customer in particular that comes to mind that runs one of our motors with the Butcher going on 7 years without even breaking into the motor. Every season...every pass...Butcher all the way.

BUT, NOTHING is infallible. Everything breaks, wrinkles, sags, runs, shears, and fractures. Fact of life. No one should expect ANY race component to last forever.

When you're at the big power full boogie levels, you can't make mountains of HP and never pop your hood.

 

[darren]

FWIW -

Although I've never met Darren in person, I have talked to him on the phone a few times and I'm friends with people that know him personally and are running his engines in this area. His reputation is outstanding and well-deserved.

Be grateful for any knowledge or information he is willing to share.

Thanks buddy! Appreciate the kind words and support from the land of OKC!

I'll try and help out anyone the best I can.

 

[JacksonAuto]

I agree. Stock cranks have always been balanced pretty well from factory. On the average with OEMs over the years about 2 grams.

Nothing Eagle has put out (or Manley for that matter) has been "in spec" out of the box from what I've been privy to. You best count on fixing it before assembly.

+1

 

[BogusSVO]

When you're at the big power full boogie levels, you can't make mountains of HP and never pop your hood.

Darren... that goes for a box stock engine too!


I understand the theroy behind the butcher crank, just never used one.