Built Motor: 264/272, 272/272, or stock cams on E316G

[Artago]

Hi all, I'm getting a motor built top to bottom in anticipation of other mods and I need some help. So let me tell you what I want to do and then I have a few questions.

First of I'm getting a fully built 7-bolt at 8.5:1 comp (I know, but I don't want a 6-bolt). Short block and head will be fully built.
Then I'm putting in a Evo 3 16G setup with ALL the supporting fuel, ignition and engine management mods. My goal is 350-400 WHP. My car will be my daily driver but it will see the track from time to time.

So here are my questions. In my upcoming build should I fork out an extra $500 bucks and get Crower (only crower) cams or should I stick with stock cams? And if I go with upgraded cams should I go with 264/272 or 272/272? Keeping in mind this is my daily driver and I want a smooth idle. However this would imply the 264/272's because they idle smoothly. However, is the performance gain from the 264/272's worth the $500? Or should I just stick with stock cams for now and upgrade later?

Thanks, Tom.

 

[dsm-onster]

I'd get a cam profile, designed w/ the stroker in mind. I love my FP2Xs for this reason. They have the EXACT same ramp rate, same duration as fp3s. Fp3s are designed w/ the stroker in mind. The ONLY difference is there's 3-4 degrees of cam retard (cam lobe centerline) on the fp3s out of the box. The fp2x cams have VERY slightly more lift. A single adjustable exhaust cam gear can get a set of fp2xs to do what fp3s do for a stroker. You can get the cams for a 2.0 now and when you later decide to upgrade the stroke, Boom! you have a good set of stroker cams right in the head. Just need a bit of exhaust retard. Have your cake and eat it too. Get the cams NOW and runit w/ what you have; then save for your stroker and you're cams are already there.

I've been running Manley singles and STOCK retainers w/ my fp2xs for years now w/ no issue and an 8500 rpm redline. It's never suggested to take a stroker to such a rev limit, so I don't see why cheaper manley singles wouldn't be just fine for the fp2Xs or fp3s. In fact, I called Manley and talked to a "senior tech" guy. He assured me that their advertised seat and lift pressures are very conservative. And, that they can handle the profile I emailed him (which was a link to the fp website). He suggest a 0.010" shim if you're "scared" since they can take on well beyond the peak lift of any cam profile mass produced for the 4g63. Any local machine shop can do this for all your springs for 20-40 bones.

 

[kraka]

Just wanna add that I run the FP1 intake/ FP2 exhaust cam on my PTE 50trim setup

Its comparable to the 264/272 proven combo, except the FP1 has more midrange than the 264 and the FP2 exhaust has more top end than a 272

If you do in fact go straight 272/272 however than get some Brian Crower units, you will save $300 over the HKS

 

[nightspeed87]

I'd get a cam profile, designed w/ the stroker in mind. I love my FP2Xs for this reason. They have the EXACT same ramp rate, same duration as fp3s. Fp3s are designed w/ the stroker in mind. The ONLY difference is there's 3-4 degrees of cam retard (cam lobe centerline) on the fp3s out of the box. The fp2x cams have VERY slightly more lift. A single adjustable exhaust cam gear can get a set of fp2xs to do what fp3s do for a stroker. You can get the cams for a 2.0 now and when you later decide to upgrade the stroke, Boom! you have a good set of stroker cams right in the head. Just need a bit of exhaust retard. Have your cake and eat it too. Get the cams NOW and runit w/ what you have; then save for your stroker and you're cams are already there.

I've been running Manley singles and STOCK retainers w/ my fp2xs for years now w/ no issue and an 8500 rpm redline. It's never suggested to take a stroker to such a rev limit, so I don't see why cheaper manley singles wouldn't be just fine for the fp2Xs or fp3s. In fact, I called Manley and talked to a "senior tech" guy. He assured me that their advertised seat and lift pressures are very conservative. And, that they can handle the profile I emailed him (which was a link to the fp website). He suggest a 0.010" shim if you're "scared" since they can take on well beyond the peak lift of any cam profile mass produced for the 4g63. Any local machine shop can do this for all your springs for 20-40 bones.

Hm.. This def is good to know.

 

[dsm-onster]

I played w/ Paint a while back. I wanted to really know for sure why the Manley's are holding up to the fp2Xs. Here's an overlay of the fp2 profiles onto the profile graph of the fp2Xs. If FP says that fresh stock springs are fine for the fp2s, then why the neccesary jump to SO much more spring rate. There's not that much difference in ramp rate or peak lift. It is like like about 2% more peak lift and a 5% more ramp rate from my math and plotting those graphs. If the stocker springs are fine w/ the fp2s, even if they're on the very edge of what they can handle, a spring that can handle 10% more would likely be fine. And most singles surely can do that.

 

[deletrius]

I have FP2s in my car and love them. They don't idle too rough, just enough to make the car sound awesome and they add so much to the mid-top end.

 

[nightspeed87]

I played w/ Paint a while back. I wanted to really know for sure why the Manley's are holding up to the fp2Xs. Here's an overlay of the fp2 profiles onto the profile graph of the fp2Xs. If FP says that fresh stock springs are fine for the fp2s, then why the neccesary jump to SO much more spring rate. There's not that much difference in ramp rate or peak lift. It is like like about 2% more peak lift and a 5% more ramp rate from my math and plotting those graphs. If the stocker springs are fine w/ the fp2s, even if they're on the very edge of what they can handle, a spring that can handle 10% more would likely be fine. And most singles surely can do that.

So with fp2s, what are you suggesting the single springs on the x's would be good till as far as revs. I hope I have the money to get the X's when i do cams, but good chance I wont and have to cop out and get regular fp2s. But Im only looking to rev to 8k max ( where I set my rev limiter) and that will be because I want to eventually one day go 2.3
but even if I dont ever go stroker i still wont be revving past 8... By mistake ive hit 8.5 on the stock head with stock cams on a 1st gear pull when i had my rev limiter up there and no problems but ive since lowered it to 8k. If fp2x's will work till 8k on stock head that would be great.

 

[JayRolla]

Man why is everyone keep saying go with FP. I hate there customer service. My mechanic built a motor with FP3x's and they gave him some messed up shit. The exhaust cam was grinded as a intake cam and the intake cam grinded for an exhaust. Needless to say it almost killed the motor.

Now they run only brian crower 280's on there strokers. They are way cheaper and work great.

To the OP if you are never upgrading your turbo in the future you will get more power from the 264/272 combo and has been proven on a dyno. The 272/272 combo will work a lot better with a larger turbo. Ohh and they are not really worth it if your paying a bunch for the cams because money can be spent in other places for more power. I would go with BC cams.

Upgraded springs will be a good idea, since Ive seen someone through a valve on stock drivetrain running 272/272's, but everyone will say its ok. Not me though. Also lighter valves are always a good idea.

 

[dsm-onster]

So with fp2s, what are you suggesting the single springs on the x's would be good till as far as revs. I hope I have the money to get the X's when i do cams, but good chance I wont and have to cop out and get regular fp2s. But Im only looking to rev to 8k max ( where I set my rev limiter) and that will be because I want to eventually one day go 2.3
but even if I dont ever go stroker i still wont be revving past 8... By mistake ive hit 8.5 on the stock head with stock cams on a 1st gear pull when i had my rev limiter up there and no problems but ive since lowered it to 8k. If fp2x's will work till 8k on stock head that would be great.

I run my Manley single's to 8.5K it's a daily driver. I've hit the revlimiter because the fp2Xs and the 60-1 still pull to there and NEVER had valve float or any issue. I have what over 6.5K miles on this setup.

 

[dsm-onster]

Man why is everyone keep saying go with FP. I hate there customer service. My mechanic built a motor with FP3x's and they gave him some messed up shit. The exhaust cam was grinded as a intake cam and the intake cam grinded for an exhaust. Needless to say it almost killed the motor.

Oh, please. I'm not flaming you or anything at all. But, did your mechanic tell you that or dd you see it? The fp3x cams have a nearly bilateral grind for both cams and the intake cam has more lift than the exhaust cam. If you put the intake cam grind on the exhaust side then there would be LESS valve clearance issue because the exhaust valve is much narrower in diameter. IF the cas groove was cut into the wrong cam then at worse it wouldn't perform as well on a dyno. That's about it. It may have been annoying to get a set of mixed grinds, but no engine damage would result. He's blowing smoke.

So still, what's wrong w/ the customer service? You mentioned a bad set of cams but nothing about service. . .

They have been excellent for me. Always.

I'm not saying that I think FP is the best. I'll mention this because we're discussing cams and neccesary upgrades for cams. FP mentions that the fp2X grind requires a set of dual springs and looky here they've got a set that are more expensive than elsewere. If you're going to spend that much for springs, get a set of Beehive springs for $85 more from Kiggly and be done w/ springs forever. They have gone about 1K rpms higher then any dual springs kiggly has ever run/tested. There are other things that I don't want to say, because guess what, it's just my opinion and we have a vendors-reviewed.com site just for vendor reviews.

Nevertheless, one mechanic's issue w/ FP is not reason enough to sway the rest of the import performance community. FP makes lot's of money off of us. But their products are topnotch and built very overkill. And we all know, if murphy's law is going to take effect on a part, it will be in a DSM .

 

[Artago]

Wow, this thread has filled up since I check it last. Anyways, I just wanted to tell you that I've decided to go with the BC 272/272 combo and the guy building my engine is putting them in soon. Here's a list of the work getting done if anyone's interested. (Oh and I decided to keep it a 2 liter)
MAHLE FORGED pistons
SCAT FORGED RODS
ARP main Studs/Bolts. Brass freeze plugs. Block painted RED.
New oil pump front cover & oil drive gears.
Line boring, decking, boring, and plateau honing of block.
Assembly of the shortblock.
Balancing/blueprinting of rotating assembly.
File Fit Pistons rings. New ACL performance bearings (Rods,
Mains and Thrust). Crankshaft indexed. 7-Bolt Crank Mod.
Full gasket set . New Water pump . Timing Belt, Idlers,
Tensioners. Stock Cam Gears
HEAD (STAINLESS SP PERFORMANCE valves)
Silica-bronze guides, New lifters 3G , Crower Performance
springs and Retainers . New Valve Locks ARP head studs.
MLS head gasket Cometic. New cam seals. Rocker cover
gaskets11. Rocker arms (set of 16).Crower 64413-2’s

Hopefully all this will be done by mid August. Then I have to drop it into my car. I'll give you all an update when it's up and running. One more thing, I got a good deal on a V-Trim ($600 polished and internally gated) so I pick that up instead of the E316G. Should be fun. See you all soon. Cheers, Tom.

 

[GVR4592]

I'd get a cam profile, designed w/ the stroker in mind. I love my FP2Xs for this reason. They have the EXACT same ramp rate, same duration as fp3s. Fp3s are designed w/ the stroker in mind. The ONLY difference is there's 3-4 degrees of cam retard (cam lobe centerline) on the fp3s out of the box. The fp2x cams have VERY slightly more lift. A single adjustable exhaust cam gear can get a set of fp2xs to do what fp3s do for a stroker. You can get the cams for a 2.0 now and when you later decide to upgrade the stroke, Boom! you have a good set of stroker cams right in the head. Just need a bit of exhaust retard. Have your cake and eat it too. Get the cams NOW and runit w/ what you have; then save for your stroker and you're cams are already there.

I think you should take a closer look at the cam cards, your information is not accurate.

 

[dsm-onster]

I think you should take a closer look at the cam cards, your information is not accurate.

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Other than centerline angle of the intake cams and not even, what, 1% or so more lift (favoring the FP2X profile ), what is the difference?

As you've quoted, I DID say 'fp3' not 'fp3X' .

 

[GVR4592]

My mistake, I thought you were talking about the 3x's.

 

[dsm-onster]

Hey not a biggie to me bud. Most upgrade to 3Xs anyway; being that FP says you need dual springs for all grinds from 2X up. . . Consequently, most don't bother even looking at the fp3s. I just want people to know that they are as good as the fp2Xs with the proper overlap for a stroker. . .