264/272's or 272's on 13g

[stutz43078]

Hey guys. Wasn't planning on doing cams so soon but while taking off my valve cover I noticed I have a few indents on my intake lobes. So now I'm shopping around. I plan to just send them out to delta cams for a regrind but I'm not sure if I should go with the 264/272 combo or go straight 272's. I plan to drive this almost as a daily driver while sticking with the stock 13g turbo that came with it set to 15psi. I've talked to delta cams already and they suggested the straight 272's, but no offense to them, I have read that if I am sticking with a smaller turbo I should go with the 264/272's. I am scared that I will lose out with the 272's because it is an automatic and I can't control it shifting short of the power band. Any suggestions? Plan on purchasing by next week so any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks guys.

 

[dsmdeliveryboy]

Look into the GSC S1 cams, they are 268/268 duration. With 272's your gonna lose some low end power.

 

[saturnshadow]

Is this what you are talking about?
Performance Parts Evo 8 & 9, Supra Performance Parts, WRX, STI, Scion Tc, Turbo - GSC Motorsports

 

[dsmdeliveryboy]

Not Evo cams, DSM cams.
GSC Power-Division Evo 1-3 and DSM S1 Camshafts :: Mitsubishi :: GSC Power-Division: Racing Inspired Products

 

[stutz43078]

Oooo, a bit out of my price range. That's why I'm going with delta to begin with. It's $125 per cam to be regrinded. Can't beat that. So I know I am going with delta, it's just which set I want to run. Thanks for showing me those regardless though.

 

[saturnshadow]

i know those were the evo i was talking about the company.
EE $588.05
How does the 264/272 compare to the GSC Power-Division S1?

 

[stutz43078]

I'm not quite sure. I know I am a bit more worried now because those are 268's and it says that the power band is 3k to 8k, meaning I will be missing out on atleast 1k of power band :/. 264/272's can't be that much different.

 

[Delta Cam]

the 264's are just off idle torque, and work really well with smaller turbo's over the stock cams

 

[LiquidX]

I'd say go with their 264/264 setup unless you plan on a larger turbo in the near future.

 

[stutz43078]

Nope, sticking with the 13g. This is just going to be my daily driver since I got it for cheap, and it's two wheel drive. After I get this one done I plan to do a 6 bolt swap into a awd 2g, which I plan on going with a 16g there. Thanks for the comments so far.

 

[pboglio]

If you must stick with the 13g, then 264's. To be honest, if we are talking about increasing V.E. with cams, I cannot possibly see it being done on the 13g hotside. Its like buying the best running shoes for a parapalegic, its not going to help. If you've ever seen the hotside of a 13g, its ridiculously tiny. At the very least, port out the exhaust manifold/turbine collector as much as you can, maybe 2.125" in diameter as that is a real choke point on that turbo. I've run the stock 13g and that same turbo modified to a Super 50 compressor wheel and 15* clipped TD04 turbine wheel. You'd see much bigger gains by buying a $150 used 14b, then the cams. The combo your attempting is just not a wise move, as the 264's will expose your motor to more of the punishing backpressure that is in the exhaust manifold. My 264's caused my car to become knock happy, and that was with a much bigger turbine section then what your attempting to run.

 

[dsm-onster]

I'm not quite sure. I know I am a bit more worried now because those are 268's and it says that the power band is 3k to 8k, meaning I will be missing out on atleast 1k of power band :/. 264/272's can't be that much different.

Thats because it was a very poor suggestion. Those cams have more effective duration than hks 272s by 3 degrees on the intake and 7 degrees on the exhaust!!! They are BIGGER than hks272s. Advertized duration is NOT what one should use to offer an alternate cam choice.

Your 13g won't merit even the hks272s. The hks 264s or the delta regrind 264s or fp1s would be MORE than enough. He!! even upgrading from your current auto cams (244/244 "advertized" duration) to the 1993-1999 252/252 "advertized" duration is a substacial upgrade: like taking a 5speed car ad upgrading to 264s. 1993-1994 heads have the highest lift of all the 252/252 stock cams.

So there's substantial gains to be made simply running stock cams from a 1993+ 5speed head. After that yea, like Pboglio said, you should be looking at a 14b upgrade before a cam upgrade.

Keep in mind that the tiny turbo and small duration cams were meant to counter the time it takes the stall to tighten.

 

[jrohner]

A 14b would be a much better upgrade than cams. I noticed a difference on my auto 1g before I even turned up the boost. Cams should never be one of the first upgrades on a DSM. It doesn't make sense money or performance wise.

I am scared that I will lose out with the 272's because it is an automatic and I can't control it shifting short of the power band

That turbo is too small to have much top end power either way. The cams will just make that hairdryer turbo fall on it's face even easier IMO.

 

[pboglio]

I'll be honest, the stocker auto tranny cams on my 10* clipped small 16g had no problems making some ridiculous topend. The 14b was also a nice midgrade upgrade that could still get fullboost by 2800 rpms.

The 13g powerband is pretty low, maybe 2500-5500 rpms. This isn't any rpm band thats begging for cams. If you switched up to a 14b or 16g, I'd say cams would start making sense at that point.

I think the 5 speed cam suggestion and 14b could have you in for around $300, which is what you'd drop on regrinds more or less. And you'll EASILY break 300 h.p. with alot less punishment on the motor. Your topend will also go up dramatically. Even a small 16g with a 6cm housing would still launch the automatic off the line nicely and keep most of the topend.

 

[stutz43078]

Ok. I know that I can go to a 14b for cheap and with ease, but that's what everyone does. No one has truly tried to see what the 13g can do. So I said what the hell, I only payed 450 for the car, why not see what I can do with her. I just plan on driving her as my daily driver. As I said I plan to do a awd 2g 16g project car after I get this one where I want it. Just to give you heads up on what I plan on doing to this one, here's the list:

-dejon 2g mas to 1g intake
-dejon smic
-dejon upper and lower intercooler pipes
-14b tubular turbo manifold
-13g port matched to manifold
-tubular o2 housing with dump pipe
-3 inch downpipe
-3 inch exhaust
-power steering removal
-a/c removal
-egr removal
-balance shaft removal
-minor weight reductions
-stock fpr and injectors
-190lph fuel pump
-socketed eprom ecu
-dsmchip for 2g mas
-msd wires
-ngk plugs
-mechanical boost gauge
-boost controller set to 15psi

And I think that's all. I'm sure it will be plenty fast to get me to school. I just need to know what cams. The 252's don't sound like a bad idea. I'm sure delta could grind them to that if I wanted them to. I definetly want to avoid the knock problem pboglio was running into, so I guess I'm going smaller than 264's. Thanks for all the responses so far guys.

 

[pboglio]

O.K., so your trying to push a 13g, it pretty clear now. Then I'd highly recommend the port work, maybe more so than on any other turbo.

I cannot see the 272's being able to do anything over the 264's, at this point.
In fact, I'd talk with Delta directly to see what kind of cam they suggest for a restrictive hotside. The knock issue may be a 2g thing since the compression ratio is higher than the 1g's.

I see some extremely high backpressure with what your trying to do, but the upside is the compressor wheel doesn't really flow enough either to get you into that much trouble. Someone has the 13g map posted, I think that compressor is almost certainly done at 25 lb/min, probably 250 h.p. or so.

 

[stutz43078]

Yea, I am going to be porting out the exhaust port of the hotside to match the 14b manifold I got. I've also tried to find a 15g which is basically a ported out 13g that would bolt straight to the 14b manifold without modification. I found 2 or 3 over on 3si but they were running 500 to 750. So instead I just found a rebuild kit for the 13g I have for 75 bucks, big difference in price. Is port matching the 13g going to be enough for the 264's?

 

[dsm-onster]

A 15g is not like a ported out 13g. It has a compressor wheel that flows quite abit more and most have a larger turbine housing that helps keep flow up through to redline better.

Don't bother with regrinding your stock cams to 252/252 stock 5speed-1Gb/2G cam specs. That would cost you 90 a cam after turning in the cores. You can get stock cams with those specs for $20 a set or so if you look around . Get something like 264 regrinds if you're going for more later after you're done with the 13g.

For referece the 13g floes about 27lb/mi with typical ambient conditions. 500ft elevation and about 70degrees F (you'll need a GOOD CAI).

13g is a great turbo and a bit underrated. I ran one for a while with a auto car. I saw higher flow with more restrictive auto cams than the t25 2g car i had with bigger stock cams. The 13g held bost to red line better, but spooled just as fast MHI FTW!!! So though the flow based on the map is the same as a t25, considering the reliability of MHI and how such turbos consistantly overachieve, I consider it a bit of an upgrade to the t25 2g cars.

 

[stutz43078]

A 15g is not like a ported out 13g. It has a compressor wheel that flows quite abit more and most have a larger turbine housing that helps keep flow up through to redline better.

Don't bother with regrinding your stock cams to 252/252 stock 5speed-1Gb/2G cam specs. That would cost you 90 a cam after turning in the cores. You can get stock cams with those specs for $20 a set or so if you look around . Get something like 264 regrinds if you're going for more later after you're done with the 13g.

For referece the 13g floes about 27lb/mi with typical ambient conditions. 500ft elevation and about 70degrees F (you'll need a GOOD CAI).

13g is a great turbo and a bit underrated. I ran one for a while with a auto car. I saw higher flow with more restrictive auto cams than the t25 2g car i had with bigger stock cams. The 13g held bost to red line better, but spooled just as fast MHI FTW!!! So though the flow based on the map is the same as a t25 cosidering the reliability of MHI and how it overachieves, I consider it a bit of an upgrade to the t25 2g cars.

Ok then. So all 2g cams are 252's? From how everyone is talking 264's are over the top for my setup. Plus 90 a cam sounds better than 125 a cam haha. I prefer them to be new though, I am checking the normal sites like autozone and advanced, but they don't sell cams for these cars. Any suggestions on where to look?

 

[pboglio]

The T25 is superior IMHO. It has a bigger compressor housing, the turbine housing is bigger, and the wheel is bigger. On my auto, the 13g spooled WAY faster than the T25 on my 2g, a sure sign the turbine A/R and wheel where smaller. I never had the feeling of being restricted on the T25 on the topend on my 2g, the 13g pretty much hits a brick wall at 90 mph, thats why I don't recommend it. I can take some pics of the 13g vs. T25 and compare to show how different they are.

 

[dsm-onster]

Regardless of how big the housings are across turbo brands , the 13g flowed more in my case. Your 13g car has 244 cams, not 252 cams like your t25 car

 

[stutz43078]

Regardless of how big the housings are across turbo brands , the 13g flowed more in my case. Your 13g car has 244 cams, not 252 cams like your t25 car

Here wait. Now youv'e lost me. Are you saying the 252's would be a step in the right way, or do you think I should stick with the 244's? Also, are all 2g cams 252's? That would make them super easy to find haha.

 

[dsm-onster]

On my auto, the 13g spooled WAY faster than the T25 on my 2g, a sure sign the turbine A/R and wheel where smaller. I never had the feeling of being restricted on the T25 on the topend on my 2g, the 13g pretty much hits a brick wall at 90 mph, thats why I don't recommend it.

This is the reason for what I said. He has lowend cams that help lowend ve and reduce high end ve.

All 2g cams are 252/252 duration. 1993-1994 5speed turbo cams are 252/252 duration with SLIGHTLY higher lift.

 

[stutz43078]

Alrighty then. Looks like I'm looking for a set of 252's. Anyone have some up for grabs? Thanks for the help guys.

 

[pboglio]

Regardless of how big the housings are across turbo brands , the 13g flowed more in my case. Your 13g car has 244 cams, not 252 cams like your t25 car

I agree on the cam differences. I never ported my 13g or the exhaust manifold it came with, and that may have been the biggest difference. Typically I'd say porting is a waste of time, in this case it could competely open up the top end. That same auto tranny exhaust manifold I slapped onto my well ported 16g, same car, and it did basically the same thing, it strangled the 16g which hit a wall around 90 mph that it would basically not accelerate past, so I know it was attributed to the miniscule collector in the manifold. I nice blended port job would work absolute wonders on that thing. I still feel the T25 can outgun it, but that is my gut opinion and has no relevance to this thread.