Brand New MLS Head Gasket NOT Sealing Properly?

[Ill-EagleTSi]

Ok I need help figuring out if my head gasket did NOT seal up good.

I rebuilt a 6 bolt engine with all new stock internals, I had the Head milled flat. I also cleaned the block surface really good with some 400 Grit Wet sand Paper and a flat block.

I Used some Bullshit MLS gasket that I got off ebay cause I thought it would be ok...It was called a KABUKI Gasket kit hahahahaha WTF?!?!

So it was a 3 layer MLS gasket that was riveted together. I Sprayed it with Copper spray on both sides. Then I installed it with ARP head studs, Torqued to 95 Ft lbs in the proper sequence and in stages 10, 30, 60, 95.

After 50 miles I re-torqued the head studs.

Now the problem I have is the car is losing coolant...I don't see a leak on the outside anywhere.

And My coolant bottle overflows if I got WOT while the car is hot.

So What I have done was Change the coolant Cap to A stronger one that is 16 psi instead of 13
And I also Removed my Thermostat. I know I shouldn't do that but the car was over heating so I had to yank the t-stat to keep it cool. Now it doesn't overheat. But I still lose coolant and I don't know where its going.

I have searched for like a week and I am thinking its my headgasket cause its pushing coolant out of the over flow...but WHY would my headgasket not seal if I did everything right?

Is it cause I used 400 grit wet sand paper on the block surface? I made sure I used a flat steel block on the sand paper to keep it flat.

What can I do to confirm if the HG is bad or not sealing without tearing the whole engine back apart?

If I do have to get a new HG...what kind should I get? a OEM Composite?

 

[kawboy]

I've actually seen success to 30psi on a ebay MLS, full kabuki gasket kit, and a deck/head surfaced with a block and some paper. Standard 7 bolt arp's torqued to 95 ft/lbs. Never retorqued.

Is this a 2g head on a 6 bolt block?

 

[Ill-EagleTSi]

I've actually seen success to 30psi on a ebay MLS, full kabuki gasket kit, and a deck/head surfaced with a block and some paper. Standard 7 bolt arp's torqued to 95 ft/lbs. Never retorqued.

Is this a 2g head on a 6 bolt block?

6 bolt block and 6 bolt head. I just did another compression test with 250 miles on the engine. It was fully warmed up and the throttle was open. I got
130, 130, 130, 130
They were all exactly 130. I left the compression in there for a few minutes and it never leaked down. It stayed right at 130 all the way across.

I have 7.8:1 pistons, but doesn't 130 seem a lil low?

 

[dsmfa9nutter]

Never sand the head or block surface. That was the first mistake. Second was not using a real mls gasket and not some goofy ebay-only garbage. The arp instructions must have changed if they say 130 now, use to be 80/moly 90/oil...

The easiest way is to pull your plugs, they'll be clean as the day they went in thanks to steam cleaning if you're leaking coolant internally.

 

[Ill-EagleTSi]

No my plugs look normal. They have a greyish tan color on the tip of the plugs, but then the outer screw in part is BLACK.

Also I have NO white or any other color smoke coming out of my exhaust?!?!


Can anyone tell me if 130 psi compression is bad for a fresh 6 bolt with 7.8:1 pistons?

What do you guys think would happen if I put Coolant DYE in my radiator...then I could look in my exhaust for traces of dye. Then I would know for sure if it was leaking right?

 

[kawboy]

130 wouldn't concern me too much.. especially with cams or at altitude

 

[Ill-EagleTSi]

130 wouldn't concern me too much.. especially with cams or at altitude

Okay good...I thought 130 psi seemed ok cause at least they are all the same.

So my only option is to pull the head and replace the gasket?

If I leave it like this for a few weeks will it hurt my engine?? I always check and add coolant so I don't over heat it.

 

[kawboy]

Have you checked your heaterbox? Sometimes they leak internally and you can't see it but you lose coolant

It honestly doesn't sound like a blown hg

 

[donniekak]

I just went through a similar ordeal with a mls gasket. I changed the water pump, thermostat, and radiator cap to no avail. I pressure tested it and it held pressure with no leaks. So i finally ripped off the head to find a pristine hg, wasted $100 on that call. I replaced it with a composite that i bought to "fix" my coolant issue. Not fixed. Finally i hooked an air fitting up to one of the turbo coolant lines i have blocked off on my water neck. To my surprise the "13lb" rad caps i had bought were all leaking slightly and opening at about 9 psi allowing my water to boil. I bought a 16 lb cap and it held tight up to 16 lbs and my problems are fixed.

 

[nlzn]

I wouldn't worry on the 130 if you have head work or cams.

I sit @ 128 across the board no oil(well I have one 127 ) on a built head (272's, 1mm valves, full port work etc) on a OE rebuilt bottom end.

Using the mitsu MLS headgasket and ARPs torqued to 95 w/ 10w oil.

*EDIT: if you're burning coolant slowly (ie no smoke out of the exhaust) and you keep it topped off and youre SURE it's not overheating Id say its drive-able, just take it easy.

 

[kottyking]

Also you have good consistency with your compression test, which is a good sign. Did you ever check the radiator cap? I might have overlooked something in your thread saying you did.......

 

[Ill-EagleTSi]

Also you have good consistency with your compression test, which is a good sign. Did you ever check the radiator cap? I might have overlooked something in your thread saying you did.......

Yes I put a 16 psi Cap on and the coolant stopped overflowing into the over flow bottle...BUT I still lose coolant. about a half gallon a week...yet I see no leaks on the ground?!?!

Then eventually if I let the coolant get a lil low it starts to get too warm when at idle after a hard drive.

Someone said there was stuff that you can test the coolant with to see if exhaust gas is getting in it. Anyone know what that is?

 

[lacroixdp]

Someone said there was stuff that you can test the coolant with to see if exhaust gas is getting in it. Anyone know what that is?

Hydrocarbon test - most shops only charge $10 or so for one. An Oil Analysis is also useful... it'll let you know if you have even slight water contamination in your oil. Blackstone Labs does them for $22.95. Although, my Eclipse last month was doing the exact same thing yours was doing and I had no water in the oil whatsoever.

 

[Ill-EagleTSi]

Hydrocarbon test - most shops only charge $10 or so for one. An Oil Analysis is also useful... it'll let you know if you have even slight water contamination in your oil. Blackstone Labs does them for $22.95. Although, my Eclipse last month was doing the exact same thing yours was doing and I had no water in the oil whatsoever.

Thanks..maybe I can get that hydrocarbon test. I think mine is only pushing coolant when i hit boost...that is why I suspected the HG.

 

[Calan]

Did you ever do a leak-down test?

Compression Test Vs. Leak-down Test

 

[Ill-EagleTSi]

No I will try to go buy a Leakdown tester...what if I just take the tube off my compression tester and hook it to my air comp...then I can turn the compressor regulator to like 75 psi and take my RAD cap off. If bubbles come out of my RAD cap then the HG is NOT sealing up. Its not really a leakdown tester but I think that will help me figure this out. THANKS MAN!

 

[xlMcMlx DsM]

Cylinder Head Resurfacing

When using a MLS head gasket, you need an incredibly smooth head. I know you think it was smooth with the 400 grit, but like kottyking said, it NEEDS to be mirror smooth, or a very low RA count. Take it to a machine shop that can measure RA on the head and block and have them check it.

 

[-red97rum-]

ummm... no it won't. It will tell you that you have a static loss of compression, but will tell you nothing about why.

A leak down test would be a better choice.

*******

On the head stud torque, there are some interesting comments here. I was just looking at this last night (it came up in another thread), and ARP's data sheet that came with my studs says to torque them to 80lbs if using their moly assembly lube, but to torque them to 120lbs if using 30wt engine oil. Their explanation is that it has to do with the inconsistencies of getting proper pressure from different types of thread lubricants. I've also heard over the years that the torque value is usually calculated to provide pressures at approximately 85% of the bolt's yield strength, but I've never had the patience to do the math and understand that statement.

Any thoughts on that Paul? I'm curious now

As to what is going on with a head gasket, this article may help some.

Correct indeed sir. I just installed a new set of ARP studs in my 92 a couple days ago and that is exactly what the spec sheet said. ARP's at 95lbs with moly lube is nothing to worry about.

 

[soldave]

Correct indeed sir. I just installed a new set of ARP studs in my 92 a couple days ago and that is exactly what the spec sheet said. ARP's at 95lbs with moly lube is nothing to worry about.

Could you scan or take a photo of that spec sheet? All I've seen is this one, which is by ARP and states the specs for using ARP moly lube.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[Ill-EagleTSi]

Okay, I took the hose of my compression tester and threaded it into my spark plug holes, then connected it to my air compressor. With the cylinder at TDC I Pressurized that cylinder to 130 psi. I heard NOT 1 drop of air leaking anywhere.
My regulator gauge on the compressor didn't even move?!?! Results were the same on all 4 cylinders. Everything including the head is brand new /rebuilt.
I would have pressurized it more but my compressor only gets to about 130-140 psi.

So if my cylinder holds 130 psi is it ok? Or do I need higher pressure? How can I get to 175 psi with an air compressor?

 

[Ill-EagleTSi]

Ok now its getting weirder... My car was getting really hot today...so I turned the heater on to see if it would cool the temps down.

NOTHING...the heat was blowing cool air??!?!? What does that mean? Is my heater core blocked? I hate cooling systems

Should I run a hose though it to see if it has good flow? Somebody help Please.

 

[Calan]

It means you stumbled across another coolant system test and it failed.

If you aren't blowing hot air with your heater on, it usually means you aren't circulating any coolant through the heater coils. Assuming you are full of coolant, the trick is to find out where the blockage is and how bad it is.

Can you see coolant flowing with the radiator cap off?

 

[TOONAH]

This is a very interesting thread, since I just used an MLS HG on my 7 bolt project. I have not fired it up yet.
Based on your description of the spark plugs and the fact that your cylinders hold 130 ft lbs of pressure I tend to agree that your head gasket is OK. I do not know what "pushing coolant" means. The water pump pushes coolant around. I think they mean there could be a leak between the combustion chamber and a coolant passageway. Yet on the induction stroke the cylinder is just as likely to suck coolant in. Indeed, if coolant gets mixed with fuel/air mixture, the spark plugs will take on a steam cleaned appearance. There will be white smoke (steam) being emitted from the exhaust.
Now you say your heater is not coming on. I think you may find that your heater core is plugged up. It may be leaking only while you are driving. Get up under the dash where the heater core is and look for wetness.
If your engine overheats and the overflow bottle vents coolant, it could mean that the system is not holding 13-15 psi and the coolant is boiling off.
Please follow up your thread with the final outcome.

 

[Ill-EagleTSi]

Well I think it was cause the radiator was almost empty

I had to pour in 1.5 gallons of water to fill it up....now the heat works. So the leak is getting worse cause i only drove it a day or two since i last filled it up.

Its gotta be the HG but I swear there is NOOO smoke or steam coming out the exhaust. I have a stock cat back with stock cat tho...that might filter out the smoke??

I am clueless as to what else it could be besides the HG.

To lose a gallon and a half in 2 days is pretty bad.

 

[lacroixdp]

You've got to be boiling it out while you're driving... the HG alone won't consume that much coolant over 2 days. It will, however, introduce air into your cooling system, which in turn will cause boiling.

 

[arash15]

Pull the head. Remove all the copper spray residue on the block , Get a MITSUBISHI MLS hg and do it right . This is what happens when you cut corners, and use crap parts. Make sure the head is finished to a 40 RA or better.