Brand New MLS Head Gasket NOT Sealing Properly?

[Ill-EagleTSi]

Ok I need help figuring out if my head gasket did NOT seal up good.

I rebuilt a 6 bolt engine with all new stock internals, I had the Head milled flat. I also cleaned the block surface really good with some 400 Grit Wet sand Paper and a flat block.

I Used some Bullshit MLS gasket that I got off ebay cause I thought it would be ok...It was called a KABUKI Gasket kit hahahahaha WTF?!?!

So it was a 3 layer MLS gasket that was riveted together. I Sprayed it with Copper spray on both sides. Then I installed it with ARP head studs, Torqued to 95 Ft lbs in the proper sequence and in stages 10, 30, 60, 95.

After 50 miles I re-torqued the head studs.

Now the problem I have is the car is losing coolant...I don't see a leak on the outside anywhere.

And My coolant bottle overflows if I got WOT while the car is hot.

So What I have done was Change the coolant Cap to A stronger one that is 16 psi instead of 13
And I also Removed my Thermostat. I know I shouldn't do that but the car was over heating so I had to yank the t-stat to keep it cool. Now it doesn't overheat. But I still lose coolant and I don't know where its going.

I have searched for like a week and I am thinking its my headgasket cause its pushing coolant out of the over flow...but WHY would my headgasket not seal if I did everything right?

Is it cause I used 400 grit wet sand paper on the block surface? I made sure I used a flat steel block on the sand paper to keep it flat.

What can I do to confirm if the HG is bad or not sealing without tearing the whole engine back apart?

If I do have to get a new HG...what kind should I get? a OEM Composite?

 

[DSM_PWR]

....cleaned the block surface really good with some 400 Grit Wet sand Paper and a flat block....

....I Used some Bullshit MLS gasket that I got off ebay cause I thought it would be ok...It was called a KABUKI Gasket kit hahahahaha WTF?!?!....

If you dont see where your problem was... i dunno what to tell you

Do a compression test... that will let you know instantly if your headgasket isnt sealing...

 

[lacroixdp]

^^^ He's got the right idea. Also I'd toss in assembly error. Why did you torque your head bolts to 95FT/LBS?

 

[Anger890]

Ok I need help figuring out if my head gasket did NOT seal up good.

I rebuilt a 6 bolt engine with all new stock internals, I had the Head milled flat. I also cleaned the block surface really good with some 400 Grit Wet sand Paper and a flat block.

I Used some Bullshit MLS gasket that I got off ebay cause I thought it would be ok...It was called a KABUKI Gasket kit hahahahaha WTF?!?!

Is it cause I used 400 grit wet sand paper on the block surface? I made sure I used a flat steel block on the sand paper to keep it flat.


If I do have to get a new HG...what kind should I get? a OEM Composite?

Couple leassons to be learned from this incident.

1. 400 Grit sandpaper is not the tool to use to resurface a block.

2. Cheap ebay parts deliver what you paid for.



At this point, I would say you need to pull the eninge and bring the block to a quality machine shop to have it resurfaced, they may need to dissasemble to do this. Have the same shop check your head.

Reassemble with either the Mitsu MLS or stock composite head gasket.

 

[whitedawg]

^^^ He's got the right idea. Also I'd toss in assembly error. Why did you torque your head bolts to 95FT/LBS?

What's wrong with 95 ft/lbs? That's pretty standard with ARP's and assembly lube, anywhere from 86-100 ft/lbs. To the OP, yes that no-name MLS gasket you bought appears to be your problem. Throw it away and get a Mitsu MLS or Fel-Pro MLS gasket directly.

 

[lacroixdp]

What's wrong with 95 ft/lbs? That's pretty standard with ARP's and assembly lube, anywhere from 86-100 ft/lbs. To the OP, yes that no-name MLS gasket you bought appears to be your problem. Throw it away and get a Mitsu MLS or Fel-Pro MLS gasket directly.

85-90FT/LBS is standard. Anything much past 100FT/LBS and it can start to distort/crush the head. Some people go to 95 - that's fine if you're pushing coolant, which is why I asked him about it. A higher torque rating does not necessarily mean a better sealing head gasket. Stick with exactly what came with the bolts. OP - your block and head have to be perfectly flat to use a MLS gasket. If it is not it will not seal correctly. Make sure the mating surfaces are perfectly clean before throwing the gasket on as well.

 

[u2slow]

You`ll need to do all that work over again, sorry. If your not going to boost over 25lbs, use the Mitsu composite gasket. Forget the spray, but check the mating surfaces of both the block and head with a straight edge and feeler guage. The mating surfaces don`t need to be mirror smooth for the composite gasket, but it does have to be flat and straight.

Good luck!

 

[99gst_racer]

85-90FT/LBS is standard. Anything much past 100FT/LBS and it can start to distort/crush the head.

Anything past 100-105 ft/lbs and you're probably going to permanently fatigue/stretch the studs. I wouldn't worry too much about the head at that point. But I do agree that 85-90 ft/lbs is the absolute most I would ever recommend for the standard ARP studs.

 

[DSM_PWR]

and dont take it to just any machine shop just because they're called KABUKI Machine Works ...

Sorry couldnt resists..

But yea even wetsanding the block isnt good, its an old wisetale about how to clean/prep the block for a new headgasket but its actually a good way to lose compression..

 

[Ill-EagleTSi]

Yes I did check the block when I was done wet sanding it. I could NOT even fit the very smallest feeler gauge under the straight edge. And I did that across the WHOLE surface of the block at many different angles haha.

I also already did a compression check at about 75 miles and I got 135, 130, 130, 130
I am running new 7.8:1 comp pistons. I think 130 is a lil low...but I figured with 75 mile that the rings didn't seat in yet.
Im gonna do another compression check ASAP.

So Since I over tightened my Studs are they ruined now? If I get a new gasket and try this again do I need new studs or can I measure these and re-use them?

I honestly am not 100% sure the HG is leaking but I can't see coolant leaking anywhere else.
should I try some dye in the coolant to see where its going?

 

[lacroixdp]

Did you use Chrome rings? And if you did, did you get an appropriate rough hone for them to seat properly? I'd just check those studs with a caliper for stretch - they are most likely just fine if you just went to 95FT/LBS. As far as you overheating, I'm assuming you replaced the water pump when you tore the engine down. If you don't see any coolant leakage whatsoever, then there's not much else it can be other than a head gasket. Make sure the mating surface for the radiator cap is clean and straight - I've seen a mangled surface cause problems with the overfill tank before. I'm also assuming you bled the system properly. If all that checks out, then I'd fault the ebay head gasket.

 

[Calan]

Do a compression test... that will let you know instantly if your headgasket isnt sealing...

ummm... no it won't. It will tell you that you have a static loss of compression, but will tell you nothing about why.

A leak down test would be a better choice.

*******

On the head stud torque, there are some interesting comments here. I was just looking at this last night (it came up in another thread), and ARP's data sheet that came with my studs says to torque them to 80lbs if using their moly assembly lube, but to torque them to 120lbs if using 30wt engine oil. Their explanation is that it has to do with the inconsistencies of getting proper pressure from different types of thread lubricants. I've also heard over the years that the torque value is usually calculated to provide pressures at approximately 85% of the bolt's yield strength, but I've never had the patience to do the math and understand that statement.

Any thoughts on that Paul? I'm curious now

As to what is going on with a head gasket, this article may help some.

 

[Ill-EagleTSi]

Did you use Chrome rings? And if you did, did you get an appropriate rough hone for them to seat properly? I'd just check those studs with a caliper for stretch - they are most likely just fine if you just went to 95FT/LBS. As far as you overheating, I'm assuming you replaced the water pump when you tore the engine down. If you don't see any coolant leakage whatsoever, then there's not much else it can be other than a head gasket. Make sure the mating surface for the radiator cap is clean and straight - I've seen a mangled surface cause problems with the overfill tank before. I'm also assuming you bled the system properly. If all that checks out, then I'd fault the ebay head gasket.

I dont know...they were Nippon Piston Rings.

Should I Lossen all the studs and try to re-torque it? Maybe that will seal the HG?

 

[lacroixdp]

ARP's data sheet that came with my studs says to torque them to 80lbs if using their moly assembly lube, but to torque them to 120lbs if using 30wt engine oil. Their explanation is that it has to do with the inconsistencies of getting proper pressure from different types of thread lubricants.

Hmm... I've never thought of people not using the moly lubricant on the bolts prior to torquing them down. It's awfully surprising that the difference is that big for going with engine oil instead of moly lube. I'd be interested in finding out specifically why it's such a big difference!

 

[Jdog]

The moly lube gives less friction between the nut and the stud so that you can torque it less. With engine oil you have more friction to overcome to make sure the nut is on there as tight as it would be with the moly.

 

[Ill-EagleTSi]

Hmm... I've never thought of people not using the moly lubricant on the bolts prior to torquing them down. It's awfully surprising that the difference is that big for going with engine oil instead of moly lube. I'd be interested in finding out specifically why it's such a big difference!

Because the torquing of the stud has to fight more friction with just oil or no lube.

The Moly Lube allows the bolt to be torqued with less friction. That gives you a more accurate torque number.

 

[lacroixdp]

I figured as much - it's just surprising it takes over 30% more torque to compensate. Prior to this I'd never heard of someone not using moly lube on a head bolt before... it's the first thing they taught us to do in my old engine rebuilding class

 

[Ill-EagleTSi]

Yeah I definitely used lots of the ARP lube. I think thats for people that are taking the head on and off and dont have more ARP Moly Lube.
I wonder if they sell that lube seperate, cause it looks like im gonna have to take my Head back off.

 

[dustinmp3]

their is also the chance that when you installed the gasket that is was flipped and it is not covering the proper holes on the block and head. do a compression test like stated b-4 and that will tell you if you need to take the engine apart.
but more times than not you are going to replace the headgasket again,
you can get a nice one from oriley or autozone
but i would get one from mist,

 

[Ill-EagleTSi]

Thanks for all the responses so far guys!


I don't think its flipped upside down...there is only one way it goes I think.

Here is a pic of the gasket right before I put the head on.

 

[99gst_racer]

On the head stud torque, there are some interesting comments here. I was just looking at this last night (it came up in another thread), and ARP's data sheet that came with my studs says to torque them to 80lbs if using their moly assembly lube, but to torque them to 120lbs if using 30wt engine oil. Their explanation is that it has to do with the inconsistencies of getting proper pressure from different types of thread lubricants. I've also heard over the years that the torque value is usually calculated to provide pressures at approximately 85% of the bolt's yield strength, but I've never had the patience to do the math and understand that statement.

Any thoughts on that Paul? I'm curious now

Their torque value is actually typically 75% of the yield strength. But ARP's torque recommendations are usually a little on the conservative side, so you can usually exceed their recommendations by a little bit, but not much. If 80 ft/lbs is 75% of it's yield strength, then 100% would put it at around 107 ft/lbs. That's why it pains me to see guys torquing standard ARPs to 105 ft/lbs (with moly) thinking that it's better.

The reason for the higher value with motor oil is due to friction. The threads will drag and create friction and that will "inflate" the torque value. 120 ft/lbs with motor oil is basically 80 ft/lbs of torque and 40 ft/lbs of friction drag. In the end, the nut will be equally tight with either method, but using moly lube will yield a more accurate clamp force across the board.

 

[Ill-EagleTSi]

So, is there anyway to tell if the HG is not sealing without stripping the whole engine back down?

Comp test and leak down?
I dont know how to do a leak down.

 

[Anger890]

Now the problem I have is the car is losing coolant...I don't see a leak on the outside anywhere.

And My coolant bottle overflows if I got WOT while the car is hot.

You may be burning the coolant, or only pushing coolant under boost. I would start by Pressure testing the cooling system, put 16+ lbs of pressure on it. Check the coolant level, if its down, remove the spark plugs and crank the engine over. If you get coolant shooting out of the plug holes at least you know the headgasket is bad.

 

[kottyking]

Did you have a mirror on the sealing surfaces before you put the head gasket on?

 

[Ill-EagleTSi]

Did you have a mirror on the sealing surfaces before you put the head gasket on?

Not a Mirror but it was pretty damn smooth. Here is a pic of the block before I put the gasket on.