Block Research

[spshocker61]

Alright...I have slowly been working toward selling my 95 GST in order to begin my first projet car. I plan to go the AWD route and hope to start it within the next year.

BUT...first i want to spend the next few months doing my research to get a base idea of how i will obtain my objectives. Just a quick overview...my objectives are to build a street car w/ full interior and a moderate sound system (dont really want a tubbed 1/4 runer only) that can run a low 11 maybe if lucky a high 10. Now im not a noob in the aspect of what it takes to hit "10's". I expect this project to take as long as needed due to the fact that it will take a shit load of money and a lot of patience and tunning. But like I said, I am going to spend the next few months doing my research on what is best and how to do this project right by at least the 3rd time around, . So...with that said...here's the first question....

From what I've learned, the 2nd gen block is better performance wise due to it's timming. But there is the obviouse problem of CW and i do NOT want to have to worry about that. So what im wondering is....can you rework the 2nd gen block (main bearings maybe?) to build it so that it will not have the subjection to CW that it does as a factory motor. Or...will the 2nd gen block always have the same possibility of CW, no matter what you change?

Figured I would start with the basics

 

[taylorspl]

Please explain, what does the block have to do with timing? No there is not a guaranteed fix for the dreaded CW. We still do not know for certain what causes it, there are only theories. Good luck with your build.

 

[pimpngear]

From the "novice" engine builders perspective, and i do mean novice, I am more partial to the 2g (7 bolt) motors just because there are so many of them going for so cheap on the trader, ebay, and all other discount locations. If it truly a project then, you can go through trial and error at a slightly cheaper price with hopefully more readily available parts. As far as CW goes, done cheap out on a set of main and rod bearings. Grab a set of clevite's, a moderate clutch (probably wouldn't exceed a 2600), and don't abuse the car on the streets (save it for the track)...all that and religious oil changes with a little prayer should keep CW at bay....

But if the thought of CW absolutely keeps you awake with night-terrors every evening....you can never go wrong with a 6 bolt.. The real questions you should be asking though is weather you want to stroke the block or go with a 2.4 or something crazy-insane like that.

Hope this helps a little in your decision is making process.
-Rob

P.S. I don’t quite understand what you are saying when you mention the better timing on a 2g block...please explain.

 

[spshocker61]

Alright...i guess i kinda worded that wrong. What i meant is that the ignition timing is different between 1G and the 2G 4G63 motors. The 2G engine has 4-6 degrees pulled back from what i understand which allows for more room to improve the power on it. While the 1G does not have the timing pulled back.

Now what i meant to ask i guess is: The igniton timing doesnt have anything to do with the block...does it? Doesn't that have to do more with the ignition setup?

Also...it's not that the thought of CW keeps me awake at night, . But this project isn't going to be a few bolt on parts and call it a day. I plan to do everything possible to the car to get as much power out of it as possible. My goal is to hit around 550 whp at least. And yes, like i said above, i know that is a LOT of work and money...lots of money...but thats why i dont care if the project takes me 3 years to do, . I'm willing to wait...it's more of a project to take up my free time and also build my dream DSM

hope this helped clear it up a little bit

 

[pimpngear]

I guess i am just confused on what you mean by timing being pulled back...But on both a 1g and 2g timing is controlled by the ECU....when in WOT conditions, the ECU tries to allow the most amount of cam advancement to increase airflow to the motor...Until it detects knock (whether real or phantom) when at that time, it pulls timing back. Now, on a 1g base timing is adjustable and a 2g it is not. But, if you like base timing adjustments so much you can slap a 1g cam angle sensor on any 2g head (some rewiring required) and Viola.....base timing adjustments. Furthermore...if this is a true project car then you would realize the importance of a set of adjustable cam gears and on that note...screw everything else i just said....Timing your way, right away.

Sooo.... all joking aside...you want to try to be the one to max out a dsm motor, well then you need a good starting platform. Go with a 6-bolt just for the ease of mind (and nobody at the track will laugh at you while they repeat what their best mechanic friend told them about CW). You can be tricky with doing a 2.3 stroker with your 6 bolt or even can-it for one of those massive 2.4 blocks, but if they are so hott....why are only a small percentage of the top producers on DSM times running anything other that a 6 bolt? But if you do choose to go with one of those, I am sure you can find a ton of usefull information for eother of them all oer this site. My 2 cents.

-Rob

 

[spshocker61]

I guess i am just confused on what you mean by timing being pulled back...But on both a 1g and 2g timing is controlled by the ECU....when in WOT conditions, the ECU tries to allow the most amount of cam advancement to increase airflow to the motor...Until it detects knock (whether real or phantom) when at that time, it pulls timing back. Now, on a 1g base timing is adjustable and a 2g it is not. But, if you like base timing adjustments so much you can slap a 1g cam angle sensor on any 2g head (some rewiring required) and Viola.....base timing adjustments. Furthermore...if this is a true project car then you would realize the importance of a set of adjustable cam gears and on that note...screw everything else i just said....Timing your way, right away.

Sooo.... all joking aside...you want to try to be the one to max out a dsm motor, well then you need a good starting platform. Go with a 6-bolt just for the ease of mind (and nobody at the track will laugh at you while they repeat what their best mechanic friend told them about CW). You can be tricky with doing a 2.3 stroker with your 6 bolt or even can-it for one of those massive 2.4 blocks, but if they are so hott....why are only a small percentage of the top producers on DSM times running anything other that a 6 bolt? But if you do choose to go with one of those, I am sure you can find a ton of usefull information for eother of them all oer this site. My 2 cents.

-Rob

Thank you for your opinions...and after researching the whole day (i mean that nearly literal, i think i have read over 400 posts today...no joke) I have decided the platform i will be running with. I have decided to build my monster around a G4CS block. It's the 6 bolt equivalant of the 4G64 and it seems to be the favored among the 2.4 liters. Even though it is not proven that the 4G64 7 bolts are prone to CW any more than a 6 bolt G4CS, I think that the G4CS will prove to be cheaper and easier to find considering its taken from 89-91 Sonatas Now its off to do some research on the internals...think ill start with the crank and work my way up

 

[Suparata]

The Hyundai block would be my last choice over the Mitsubishi blocks. The same goes for cranks. The G64B is a better choice the best being the 6 bolt 4G64. It already has the "latest" developments on a 6 bolt. Also if you decide to machine for squirters (which you probably should with your particular application), it will be a lot more accurate when it is done on the Mitsu blocks.
Overall the Mitsu components are better and would be the best choice.

 

[spshocker61]

Hmmm....I thought from what I read that the G64B will not bolt up to our trannies w/ out moddifications? And I also understood from what the posts that I found had said, that the 4G64 didnt have a 6 bolt version. What yr vehicle did the 6 bolt 4G64 come out of? (dont want to come across as not beleiving there is one, i just want to know b/c if i had before I would have chose that over the G4CS anyway) Thank you for your input....I kinda didnt like the idea of going with a Hyundai motor...but I didnt seen a good alternative, but then again the thread that i got most of my info off of was hard to keep straight who had proved who wrong and what was actually right, . I know you had posted in it, it was the one where you had the disagreement about shaving the oil squirters, .

 

[Suparata]

There are two versions of the G64B. One is RWD which has a larger bell housing bolt pattern and that will not bolt to a DSM tranny. The one that you need is the FWD one.
There is a 6 bolt 4G64 which is a one year production only therefore kinda rare but that is the best one. It was made basically in 1991.

 

[spshocker61]

So if i find a 4G64 in a 91 Galant then it will have a high chance of being a 6 bolt? I will be going with this block now, base on what I have learned from you. Seeing as I'm not cutting any corners I wont even consider the G64B Now you also mentioned the oil squirters on the 4G64....and you said that i should have it machined to accomodate them, correct? Just wondered why you said "for my particular application", what is the key reason that I will benefit from them? I know you have debated about this before, and I am in no way trying to argue your opinion. I just like to know things, . I assume it will be for the lubrication factor? Thank you again for your help on this...I think I've learned more in the last 3 days than I have in the last 3 years of watching these forums

 

[Suparata]

It actually comes out of an early Expo not a Galant. It even has the boss for the knock sensor where the 2.0 is.

Squirters are recommended on street driven, road raced engines. Besides the lubrication in vital places where there is limited oil especially with aftermarket rods and the fact that they stabilize temperatures, you also have a pressure relief that actually does something good not just return the oil in the oil pan.

 

[spshocker61]

Ok....started lookin around for prices on a 4G64 from a 91 Expo....and of course another dilema, . Glad that im findin all this stuff out before i have the money to burn a hole in my pocket

Anyway...from what i can find, the Mitsubishi Expo was only made from 1992-1995. Now i know that that would essentially mean that the 1992 Expo's motor would technicaly have been produced in 1991...is that what you meant? Just tryin to figure out if there is any differences between the years 1992-1995. ....i cant beleive im building a 600+ hp street car around a minivan block, WTF ! rofl!

I think im gonna get plates that say something like.... Expo pwrd...cept i dont think that would fit, .

 

[spshocker61]

Ok....found another thing to add to this. I beleive by what I am finding that the Expo ran a G64B block in 1992....then they switched it over to the 4G64 block.

SO....where does that leave us? ...I am so lost on this one, .

If I had the time and the patience I think I would grab my flashlight and head out for the junkyard to rip the motor out of each and every expo they had...that would solve the problem

 

[spshocker61]

anyone?

 

[Defiant]

Never bump a thread on this forum.