Bigger injectors for 16g?

[ShapeGSX]

4)Many people have knock problems with the big 16g and Evo 16g because they are not good turbo's in the first place. They are not efficient at all, I believe peak efficiency is at 74 or 76%, I do forget, which is crappy ti say the least. Couple this with an ill flowing stock SMIC, and fo course the car is going to be knock happy.

Run a lot of boost with a larger, "efficient" turbo through the stock SMIC, and you will get a lot of knock, too. It is the SMIC that sucks, not the turbo, though.

550s were too small for my Evo III 16G at max flow.

Frankly, I don't give a crap about how efficient a turbo is. What I care about is performance. For me, the Evo III 16G is the perfect turbo because it spools up so damn fast and flows a ton of air for its size. So far, I've run two 11.9 second passes with it, and I plan on dropping that time, even in my porky 2G.

On top of this, you have never seen the compressor map for an Evo III 16G, so how do you know that it isn't efficient? It is NOT the same turbo as a big 16G! It's effective compressor inlet area is quite a bit larger than a big 16G compressor. Larger than the 0.01" indicates. You also have to account for the thinner blades, and most importantly, the thinner shank.

 

[Syndicate13]

He wasn't trying to say that they were "horrible" turbos in their own right he was simply stating that they are not that efficient, which is true. Look at a compressor map for any 16g turbo and you'll see what he's talking about. A lot of people here are trying to compare two different cars and two different setups, I believe 2G's are a A LOT different than 1G's when it comes to fuel stuff. One thing that has always bothered me is that 1G's have their base fuel pressure set at 37.5 correct? And I know for a fact that 2G's base fuel pressure is 43. Now every injector I've ever seen is rated at 43 psi except those wacky Dodge guys and the SRT injectors. Now how can two cars with different fuel pressure use the same injectors and have them flow the same, they can't. I feel this is why 2G's can get away with a lot less injector. I personally am running 20 psi with 550 injectors, FMIC, and a small 16g and get no knock from 2k to 7200 in third. Flame me if you want but I have pretty much the exact same setup as Newb2DSM and am having no troubles with it.

 

[ShapeGSX]

Just because you don't get any knock doesn't mean that you aren't maxing out your injectors.

I never maxed out my 550s on my small 16G, either. I came close, though. I ran 12.4@112mph on it with the boost as high as it would go.

The Evo III 16G is a whole different ballpark. Figure another 50hp on top of what the small 16G is capable of, at least.

So, figure it out. 90% IDCs with a small 16G, maxed out. Then you upgrade to a turbo that can push out enough air for another 50hp. I don't care what the name of the turbo is. Do you think your IDCs will be over 100%? I sure as hell do. And they were. 108%, in fact. I installed 660s, and now I'm back down to 80%, which is a good place to be.

You need numbers for this argument.

 

[RiceKiller_TSi]

He wasn't trying to say that they were "horrible" turbos in their own right he was simply stating that they are not that efficient, which is true. Look at a compressor map for any 16g turbo and you'll see what he's talking about

I understand what you are attempting to say but who gives a care about how efficient the big16g line of turboes are? And you are saying they are inefficient compared to what? A 50trim sized turbo?, a 20g?

I dont think it matters at all what the compressor map shows if the turbo is getting the car to the times that the user wants to achieve. Not to mention that it is "definitely" an upgrade compared to the t25 and 14b. Its a great turbo for the average tuner looking for street / strip performance. Believe me a properly tuned big16g will rape even a larger turboed car off the line. Spools fast and delivers big for its size.

 

[awdsm drft]

Thought I'd jump in.

Everything is relative. Heat produces knock. 16g's do work pretty hard to create the amount of boost some people demand, and therefore create more heat and often times more knock. That doesn't mean they're a piece of crap though. Plenty of ways to avoid knock. Get an intercooler. In a way your intercooler affects the efficiency of the turbo in the real world. Reducing charge temps dramatically and thereby reducing the tendency to knock. More fuel. Fuel acts as a coolant for combustion. More fuel means less knock. The type of fuel affects knock also. Octane ratings are just a measure of the fuels knock resistance. The higher the number the less likely it is your going to knock.

16g's are not a piece of crap. They're an excellent bargain and perfect for many people's needs. Truth is many people on this board have too big of a turbo for thier supporting mods or times they are running. If you aren't in the 11's with anything bigger than a 16g then something is wrong.

I spanked my body's 20g set up...with my 14b.

 

[coltboostin]

Ricekiller, read down about the 16g, but DO NOT compare the Evo8 16g to your 16g, they are COMPLETLY different turbos, with different compressor housings, compressor and turbine wheels, and a turbine houseing that wouid make you cry. Do some reserch.
The evo III turbo might be a better unit then the Big and Small 16g, but it is not the best thing you can buy. That great that the inlet area is bigger than a big 16g, but your still stuck with the most important thing when it comes to efficiency, the compressor housing itself. Anything bigger than a small 16g wheel in the tdo5h housing and the maps start to get ugly. Oh, and if no one "gave a crap" about compressor efficiency, then we would all run 25g wheels in tdo5h housings and be making 500whp off of that settup right? :laugh: Well thats not going to happen now is it?
The reason everyone buys them is because they are cheap, like most DSM'ers, and they are more then readaly available. Just because everyone has one, and its drit cheap, does not mean its a great turbo. Dont get me wrong, it is a great upgrade, but I would buy a small or maybe an Evo, and definatly not a 16g.
Small 16g:77% peak
http://www.stealth316.com/images/td05h-16gsmall-cfm.gif

The Big 16g is worst than I remember at 71% peak with a TINY island of peak efficiency. Yikes thats nasty, and sorry to cay it, by the numbers, the Evo III wont do much better. Sorry for the bad news.
http://www.stealth316.com/images/td05h-16glarge-cfm.gif

 

[coltboostin]

I never said the 16g turbo's are crap, I had a small. I will say that the big 16g is crap though. Look at the map and see for yourself.

Oh, and I just remembered a good point, since the g series turbo's are sooooo much better than the 14b, and compressor efficience does not mean anything :laugh: then why do they all run the SAME TIMES when maxed out?!
http://www.dsmtimes.org/turbo.htm
Care to explain?

 

[ShapeGSX]

I never said the 16g turbo's are carp, I had a small. I will say that the big 16g is crap though. Look at the map and see for yourself.

Oh, and I just remembered a good point, since the g series turbo's are sooooo much better than the 14b, and compressor efficience does not mean anything :laugh: then why do they all run the SAME TIMES when maxed out?!
http://www.dsmtimes.org/turbo.htm
Care to explain?

Because times do not indicate power. For that matter, neither does a trap speed. Leon Reitman's 11.6 second 14B car weighs 2500lbs without him in it, and he trapped 115mph. My 11.9 second Evo III big 16G car weighs 3150lbs without me in it and has trapped 118mph (and it is on that list at dsmtimes.org that you posted up for running 118mph).

Who's making more power, here, the heavy daily driver car with the "crap" big 16G or the light race car with the 14B?

Hell, even Leon thinks his car would run a 10 second timeslip if he put an Evo III 16G on it. And I don't doubt it.

My car is the first car to really run serious numbers from an Evo III big 16G. Nobody has maxed out that turbo, yet.

So no, they don't all run the same times when maxed out.

Anyway, you keep on looking at those maps and worrying about 6 efficiency percentage points when the overall flow is what you should really be looking at, and I'll keep on racing.

 

[RiceKiller_TSi]

Ricekiller, read down about the 16g, but DO NOT compare the Evo8 16g to your 16g, they are COMPLETLY different turbos, with different compressor housings, compressor and turbine wheels, and a turbine houseing that wouid make you cry. Do some reserch.

First off, let me remind you what the started the debate here mister chuckle-a-lot.

4)Many people have knock problems with the big 16g and Evo 16g because they are not good turbo's in the first place. They are not efficient at all, I believe peak efficiency is at 74 or 76%, I do forget, which is crappy ti say the least. Couple this with an ill flowing stock SMIC, and fo course the car is going to be knock happy.

You called both big16g's crap that only caused knock. And for the sake of argument I am aware of the differences between the two turboes. Just because you can put a 4G63 in a colt doesnt make you the turbo authority. Even you yourself mentioned that the smic is crap which helps to contribute to knock with a larger than stock turbo.
I stated that the turbo itself does not cause knock, which is still true.

As for your numbers link. What setup are those two cars running? What supporting mods does each car have and what is their weight? Yeah, theres more than just turbo size involved there partner.
And since Im on my slow assed work computer I'll be done.

 

[coltboostin]

I said 74-76% is crappy, not that the turbo was crap. And I was wrong, its at 71% peak, which is worst.
We are on the same page amout crapy SMIC, heat, and knock. Im just saying with the 71% peak efficiency of the big 16g, it will produce more heat faster, causeing a tendance to knock more.
Compressor maps do not change with settup, it is a base map for the turbo. Your personal settup changes where you will be on that map at certain PSI's and amounts of airflow.
Trust me shape, I dont sit here and study compressor maps, but it is always good to be educated and informed about things that matter to stay ahead of the game. Come to the shootout and you will see what I do best. I was just saying the big, and maybe the Evo (but their is no way to tell for sure now) may not be the best turbo's due to their tandacy to blow lots of hot air, causeing porblems with knock.
The Evo 16gIII is shaping up to be a decent turbo, and a improvement over the big,so for the money, it is the best "next step" to a 14b.

 

[awdsm drft]

With several 11 second time slips. They're the best turbo for the money in my opinion.