Bigger injectors for 16g?

[kpt4321]

Originally posted by NewB2dsm Also riching it up to 10:1 or 11:1 umm thats leaning it out guy.

How is that leaning it out? I had to richen it up past 10:1, in order to keep knock away at 18 psi. By lowering the boost, I can run 11:1 or so, which means I don't need to richen it up as much.

if you say riching it up to that point that is taking away fuel making it LEAN, but hey your the expert right?

Huh? Richening it up is adding fuel, making it rich.

Anyway i put my car on a dyno went from 18-20psi my car right now on the wideband is right around 10.5:1 and was getting 19 degrees at 7400rpm in 3rd on the dyno BEFORE my fmic. and egts were right at 1550. Also stock fuel pressure.

Congratulations. Who cares?

I get about the same timing around 7000 rpm, what is your point?

I dont know what you want me to say besides i think you should get a fmic and see what your timing and knock does at the same psi.. that is all.

A FMIC will allow me to run more boost with the same timing, without having to richen it up to avoid knock.


The point is, you seem to think that it's impossible to max out 550's in general, and especially with a smaller setup like mine. I have proved you wrong, and done so several times, fairly easily.

550's can be maxed out with a 14b or a 16g, on pump gas. No question about it, none.

 

[NewB2dsm]

YOu are right they can be maxed out but i think its alot harder than you seem to make it.

Also if you 11:1 is LEANER than 10:1 so when you "richen" it up to 10:1 or 11:1 you are not richining it up you are infact leaning it out.

 

[forcefed98gst]

Originally posted by NewB2dsm


Also if you 11:1 is LEANER than 10:1 so when you "richen" it up to 10:1 or 11:1 you are not richining it up you are infact leaning it out.

WTF are you trying to say???

If you go from an Air fuel ratio of 11:1 to 10:1 that would be adding fuel. When it goes from 10:1 to 11:1 that would be taking away fuel. It's very simple.

 

[NewB2dsm]

Originally posted by forcefed98gst
WTF are you trying to say???

If you go from an Air fuel ratio of 11:1 to 10:1 that would be adding fuel. When it goes from 10:1 to 11:1 that would be taking away fuel. It's very simple.

i know this.. the guy im talking to said i richin up to 10:1 or 11:1 im saying thats leaning it out...

 

[kpt4321]

Originally posted by NewB2dsm
i know this.. the guy im talking to said i richin up to 10:1 or 11:1 im saying thats leaning it out...

You ought to try www.hop.com. It might help you out some.

Quote from my post on A/F ratios:

I can get them over 100%, if I try to richen it up past 10:1. 11:1 or so seems to work pretty well

It's obvious that I am talking about going to 10:1 and beyond. Richer.

Then, I said that if I leaned it out and run less boost, it ran better.

 

[NewB2dsm]

Originally posted by kpt4321
You ought to try www.hop.com. It might help you out some.

Quote from my post on A/F ratios:



It's obvious that I am talking about going to 10:1 and beyond. Richer.

Then, I said that if I leaned it out and run less boost, it ran better.

then i guess im just misunderstanding the way you are writing it. if you are making it more rich beyond 10:1 you are talking like 9.5:1 or lower right? I guess it was just your wording and the way i was reading made me think that you were "richinging" it out to 10:1 or 11:1 which is leaning it out if you know what i mean.

 

[ShapeGSX]

Originally posted by NewB2dsm
You guys are all tools no offese.

550's are enough for a 16g size turbo, if you dont plan on upgrading down the road to a larger turbo stick with 550's they will even work with larger turbos just will be maxed out quicker than larger ones.

Do you have measurements and datalogs of injector duty cycle to support your guess?

I do happen to have datalogs of injector duty cycle with my Evo 16G. I'm over 108% IDC at 20psi with RC550s. In essence, the ECU wants to put 1.08 * 550cc/min of fuel into the engine. That is 594cc/min. You won't get 594cc/min out of a 550cc/min injector.

 

[Mike 99GSX]

Originally posted by ShapeGSX
Do you have measurements and datalogs of injector duty cycle to support your guess?

I do happen to have datalogs of injector duty cycle with my Evo 16G. I'm over 108% IDC at 20psi with RC550s. In essence, the ECU wants to put 1.08 * 550cc/min of fuel into the engine. That is 594cc/min. You won't get 594cc/min out of a 550cc/min injector.

Ha thats what I tried to ask him 20 posts ago He doesn't have DSMlink so the answer will be no.

 

[kpt4321]

Originally posted by ShapeGSX
I do happen to have datalogs of injector duty cycle with my Evo 16G. I'm over 108% IDC at 20psi with RC550s. In essence, the ECU wants to put 1.08 * 550cc/min of fuel into the engine. That is 594cc/min. You won't get 594cc/min out of a 550cc/min injector.

You probably shouldn't have even gotten involved. Now he's going to say you are dumb and lazy, and don't know how to tune.

 

[NewB2dsm]

Originally posted by kpt4321
You probably shouldn't have even gotten involved. Now he's going to say you are dumb and lazy, and don't know how to tune.

yea your right

Sorry but i do not think im maxing my 550's out, im not saying it cant be done with a 16g. Also i just have a hard time beliving a 14b will max out 550's, it possibly can since it has gone low low 12's which is flowing enough air to do it, i just dont see any average person with a 14b maxing out 550's on a 14b, Even if the duty cycles are in the upper 90's i would like to see what a fmic would do in his cituation even if it just alows him to run more boost then it would let him run less boost or the same boost safer?

anyway think what you want 550's are still a perfect match for a 16g sized turbo. Also i dont get how -18% between 5-7k on my afc with 19degree timing at 7400 and egts fine and wideband still a little rich (10.5:1) can lead to maxing out the injectors.

 

[ShapeGSX]

Originally posted by NewB2dsm

anyway think what you want 550's are still a perfect match for a 16g sized turbo. Also i dont get how -18% between 5-7k on my afc with 19degree timing at 7400 and egts fine and wideband still a little rich (10.5:1) can lead to maxing out the injectors.

Sounds like you are lower on air flow than you should be. 550s are perfect for you, then.

 

[Mike 99GSX]

Originally posted by NewB2dsm
yea your right

Sorry but i do not think im maxing my 550's out, im not saying it cant be done with a 16g. Also i just have a hard time beliving a 14b will max out 550's, it possibly can since it has gone low low 12's which is flowing enough air to do it, i just dont see any average person with a 14b maxing out 550's on a 14b, Even if the duty cycles are in the upper 90's i would like to see what a fmic would do in his cituation even if it just alows him to run more boost then it would let him run less boost or the same boost safer?

anyway think what you want 550's are still a perfect match for a 16g sized turbo. Also i dont get how -18% between 5-7k on my afc with 19degree timing at 7400 and egts fine and wideband still a little rich (10.5:1) can lead to maxing out the injectors.

Sorry but am I missing something here though because you said something like this earlier when you were trying to show up KPT4321 What does a heat soaked intercooler have to do with injector duty cycles? True your ECU will pull timing if your intake temps get too high and it will pull timing if duty cycles are too high but I don't see how they are related? Also I wouldn't be bragging about 19 degrees timing at 7400 as being so great on a 16g. I guarantee you are getting timing pulled because of the duty cycles. I got 21-22 timing at 7K on my car when I had a 16g on pump gas after I put 660s in from 550s.

 

[NewB2dsm]

Well i tried to post the html but hat didnt work so well so here is the link..
http://www.roadraceengineering.com/eclfuel.htm
close to the bottom.

from RRE website itself. Not saying its 100% acurate but it does say 550's are good for 20psi on good pump gas.

Also the FMIC i just would like to see what it would do, Only thing i was thinking is that if you are trying to tune with a heatsoaked IC you are going to be adding more fuel to compensate for timing and knock but you really "might not" need that fuel and it was just the heat soak making you think you needed it. Granted its probably a far fetched idea, but i would still like to see what a fmic would do to it, since a intercooler on a turbo car is a pretty important part. And i was not trying to show anyone up, all i was saying is that you can run 20psi on pump gas on 550's there are people doing it, and many people around here where i live doing it as well. also i never said 19 degrees was good but its certainly not bad

 

[sweet97]

Guys I am new to these cars having owned Conquests. I would like to run an EVO 16G at say 16psi with pump gas and am confused if I would be OK with the stock injectors or should I go with 550's?If I stay stock what would be the max recommended boost level. Same question with 550's and the 16G/what max boost is safe/realistic? Thanks much, Mark

 

[DeanCorleone]

I think I'm going to go with a Big 16, at some point. But anways, I really don't know crap about tuning the fuel/air ratios, running rich or lean, I understand what rich and lean is... and thats about it. I realize that at some point I'm going to have to learn about these things. I've got a boost gauge, and controller on my car, other then that I'm stock. I was wondering if anyone has a 'easy' breakdown guide to tuning our cars? And another fast question about fuel/air ... I hear you guys saying "90% duty cycle..." and 100%, and so on... clue me in? Thanks... have fun for the @$$'s that will be flaming me for the newbie post. Better to ask then to not ask.

"There is no stupid question, just stupid people."

 

[Slappster]

Would it be ok to get 720's and use them right now on a big 16g, with afc and logger. Since I want a bigger turbo soon anyways I'd rather only buy one set of injectors.

 

[sweet97]

Still need advice.
EVO 16g with the 450c's on my '93/max boost.

EVO 16G with 550cc injectors/max boost.

both on pump premium. Thanks

 

[ElChupacabra]

Yeah I get ungodly confused . . . .

I have an FMIC, 550cc injectors, 255lph fuel pump, evo 16g, all the plumbing 3" wide from turbo back, hard IC pipes etc etc etc . . . oh, and an S-AFC tuned at about 12.5-13.0:1 AF ratio (starts a lot leaner though, like 15).

some people say 18psi is the safest, some say 20psi

what's the verdict?

 

[szewczyd]

How much boost could be run somewhat effciently on a EVO III 16g or Big 16g with a walboro 255, 450's and the stock SMIC, but with a upper intercooler pipe on a 1g,

 

[98spydert]

How much boost could be run somewhat effciently on a EVO III 16g or Big 16g with a walboro 255, 450's and the stock SMIC, but with a upper intercooler pipe on a 1g,

Seems like 15-17 on stock fuel pressure is the general concenses. I wouldn't go above 15 but I worry too much

 

[coltboostin]

Yikes, some rediculous things going on here.

1) whoever said you cannot run more than 550cc out of a 550cc injector, um nope sorry, you can.: Raise fuel pressure

2)550cc will be fine with your 16g, peiord.

3) 550cc can and will go a long way with the correct turbo and raised fuel pressure. I have seen people put down 400+whp on 550, but at 50psi or more base fuel pressure.

4)Many people have knock problems with the big 16g and Evo 16g because they are not good turbo's in the first place. They are not efficient at all, I believe peak efficiency is at 74 or 76%, I do forget, which is crappy ti say the least. Couple this with an ill flowing stock SMIC, and fo course the car is going to be knock happy.

5) 19 degress of timming is nothing to be impressed with, in fact it is somewhat crappy. 25 advanced and up on pump is impressive.

6)kpt4321, you have informative post and seem to know what you are taking about, but if you are maxing out 620cc injectors with a 14b, their is somthing screwy with your setup. What king of times do you run in that thing? Im not ripping on you, Im just saying that is well, simply messed up!

 

[coltboostin]

Yeah I get ungodly confused . . . .

I have an FMIC, 550cc injectors, 255lph fuel pump, evo 16g, all the plumbing 3" wide from turbo back, hard IC pipes etc etc etc . . . oh, and an S-AFC tuned at about 12.5-13.0:1 AF ratio (starts a lot leaner though, like 15).

some people say 18psi is the safest, some say 20psi

what's the verdict?

I hope you dont know what your talking about, because if you are really running that lean, you will be rebuilding your junk very soon!

 

[yo2001]

550's, 45psi static pressure, 22psi, 93 octane, EVOIII16G, FMIC, 1 knock sum in 1/8 mi.

550 can do it but 660 would be nice, the price difference is only $80 or so

 

[yo2001]

Timing maxing out at 23 deg with 5 advance in the base timing.

 

[RiceKiller_TSi]

4)Many people have knock problems with the big 16g and Evo 16g because they are not good turbo's in the first place. They are not efficient at all, I believe peak efficiency is at 74 or 76%, I do forget, which is crappy ti say the least. Couple this with an ill flowing stock SMIC, and fo course the car is going to be knock happy.

Hey! What are you talking about big 16g and EVOIII's being bad turbos? You are the first person I've ever heard of to say that online or locally. If they suck so bad how come they are purchased more than any other brand of Mitsu turbo? Why does the EVO8 come with a big 16G? I suppose its because Mitsu knows how crappy it is. BTW any turbo can produce engine knock... its just a matter of running the wrong fuel setup for the amount of boost you're trying to push through. Turboes dont cause knock by themselves, thats rediculous.