Battery relocation with car audio

[DGajre777]

My stock battery finally gave out yesterday. Since I haven't found any info on people with car audio, here is a my wiring schematic.

Questions:
1) Am I okay to run a 4G wire for the alternator or do I need to upgrade to 2G or 1/0G? I already have a 4G wire from the alternator to a 100 amp ANL fuse on the firewall.

2) How do I incorporate a 4G wire for the amp? Should I run it directly to the battery or mount another distribution block?

3) Is the wiring for the toggle switch with a 10G wire correct? I don't want someone to be able to kill power to the battery while the car is parked and the alarm is on.

Any suggestions on the wiring?

 

[delta448]

1) Should be okay, how much you drain the battery with electronics and audio really determines how much current you'll demand from the alternator, I'd probably use the heavier 2G or 1/0 if it was easily available just to be safe.

2) I'd skip the distribution block unless you plan to mount more components nearby that will need electrical power in the future. Just don't forget to use a fuse.

3) So you're planning to use a 10G jumper to override the Moroso disconnect just for security? Should be fine unless you try to start the car with the disconnect off and the jumper on. The starter will pull enough current to smoke that 10G wire pretty quick.

 

[DGajre777]

1) Should be okay, how much you drain the battery with electronics and audio really determines how much current you'll demand from the alternator, I'd probably use the heavier 2G or 1/0 if it was easily available just to be safe.

I can replace it with heavier wire but I would have to rewire my current 4G alternator wire, which I'd rather not do since I did it a few months ago. I have OEM type Autozone wire from the alternator to the fuse holder mounted above the stock battery location and plan on using higher flowing car audio type wiring to the Moroso disconnect switch... I'm hoping that I will be able to pull more current from better wiring. The question is - do I really need a wire thicker than 4G?!

2) I'd skip the distribution block unless you plan to mount more components nearby that will need electrical power in the future. Just don't forget to use a fuse.

No plans yet, but I can always mount a distribution block later if I decide to mount more components.

So you're planning to use a 10G jumper to override the Moroso disconnect just for security? Should be fine unless you try to start the car with the disconnect off and the jumper on. The starter will pull enough current to smoke that 10G wire pretty quick.

Yes, the 10G jumper wire is just for security. I don't see myself doing a walk around the car to check the battery switch (which will be mounted on the tail light assembly) every time I start the car. Couldn't I use a reset-able circuit breaker in line to the toggle switch? How many amps will the CB have to be?

 

[DGajre777]

Found some info here... http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...k-battery-box-cutoff-switch-installation.html

NOTE FOR SECURITY SYSTEMS AND BATTERY CONSTANT DEVICES: The cutoff switch in this manner will allow anyone to cut off cempletely to your car making the security system turn off amungst other things. Several times I had idiot people walk over to my car and turn the cutoff switch off. I then had to reset my radio and my ECU had to relearn everything. In order to solve this problem I added another wire to the install. I ran a 10 gauge wire from the battery positive terminal to the engine side of the cutoff switch. I placed a 30 amp fuse on this wire so that it wouldn't be overloaded. I also placed a toggle switch in this wire so that when I was at the track I could disable this wire and remain within the rules. This wire will allow power to the car even with the cutoff switch off up to the fuse limit. Now at the track I switch the toggle off and all other times it remains on.

Revised schematic, added 30 amp fuse from toggle switch to battery.

 

[delta448]

The cicuit breaker sounds like a good move.

I forget, do DSMs have the starter positive as the common point to the fuse box positive or is there a separate lead to the box from the battery?

If the starter positive bolt isn't inline before the fuse box, I'd put the toggle switch inline to the fuse box positive. That would let you run all accessories and security (but still prevent starting) without the disconnect turned on.

 

[DGajre777]

Update: I'll be running 2G wire from the alternator to the disconnect switch. I got a Stinger mini-ANL fused distribution block with 2 x 1/0G in and 4 x 4G or 8G outputs. I'll be running the amp off one of the 4G outputs and use the 1/0G inputs as a flow through from the battery to the disconnect switch.

I plan to use one of the 8G outputs with 8G wire and a 40 amp mini-ANL fuse with a toggle switch to bypass the switch for security. I would go with a 30 amp fuse, but the smallest mini-ANL that I could find was 40 amps. This switch is the only part of the install that I'm not too sure about, I don't want my car blowing up or catching on fire!

I forget, do DSMs have the starter positive as the common point to the fuse box positive or is there a separate lead to the box from the battery?

I have no idea, but I do have a clutch kill switch that I use as a security/safety switch to prevent engine cranking and to start the car without pressing the clutch.

 

[DGajre777]

I'm thinking about a 250 AMP fuse... is this an overkill?

Updated pic below, feedback or comments are welcome.

 

[Jed_Atreides]

By any chance you are an instruction manual writer? L33t diagrams and flow chart.

 

[delta448]

The starter should definitely pull less than 150amps while cranking and the starter is the most electrical load that the battery should ever see. Unless you have an incredibly powerful sub amp to power, you shouldn't need to pull even 100amps from the battery alone after the engine is running, since the alternator will supply enough power to run the car. A 150amp fuse will probably give a little extra room, but a 250amp fuse really is extreme overkill.

If I were doing it, unless it would be very difficult, I'd just add a high current relay to divide the power. This way the security system and all memory would still have power (as long as the toggle was closed) even if someone threw the disconnect off. -But the starter would not ever try to pull power through the toggle wiring.

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[DGajre777]

The starter should definitely pull less than 150amps while cranking and the starter is the most electrical load that the battery should ever see. Unless you have an incredibly powerful sub amp to power, you shouldn't need to pull even 100amps from the battery alone after the engine is running, since the alternator will supply enough power to run the car. A 150amp fuse will probably give a little extra room, but a 250amp fuse really is extreme overkill.

Thats what I thought, until I talked to a local car audio shop owner that said that I should put the biggest fuse I can get so it is not a restriction and let the battery pull or push as much juice as it wants to. Then I thought... but I only have a 100 amp alternator and a highly efficient class D amp (600 Watt @ 2 Ohms) with a 60 amp fuse. I think I am going to go with 150 amps and if it blows, I'll upgrade it to 250.

If I were doing it, unless it would be very difficult, I'd just add a high current relay to divide the power. This way the security system and all memory would still have power (as long as the toggle was closed) even if someone threw the disconnect off. -But the starter would not ever try to pull power through the toggle wiring.

Wiring the relay in the pic above is a PITA. I do have starter kill on my alarm, I could just feed into that wire and put a toggle on it but it probably won't pass a tech inspection without a toggle switch on the 8G wire... unless I have 2 toggle switches.

By any chance you are an instruction manual writer? L33t diagrams and flow chart.

Thank you. Not an instruction manual writer, but I'm a flight instructor and I make my own maneuver guides and checklists.

 

[DGajre777]

Up and running , here are some pics.

 

[DGajre777]

After not being happy with the location of the battery mounted in the pics above, I moved mine to the spare tire area. Battery is mounted on a 1/4" thick spot welded steel plate for support.

What are people doing to secure the nuts under the car? I currently have fender washers and flanged-nuts under the car to secure the battery. All the parts are stainless steel. In the inside, I have one flanged nut with a nylon threaded nut on top of it. Is this enough?

I've been trying to find flanged stainless steel nuts with nylon threads, but I can't find them anywhere! Should I have the washers and the flanged nuts spot welded to the bottom of the car?

 

[DGajre777]

Visual-ish people on DSMTuners? ...

... except you got my wiring all wrong. I don't have a relay, my entire switch is not outside the trunk, I don't have 3 wires out of the distribution block, I don't have a fuse 2 wires from the switch going to a "fuse". I don't have a wire going to the "starter", I have a fuse in between the alternator and the switch... and I could go on and on and on... please remove your picture or edit/delete your post.

Here is the final wiring diagram for those interested... still debating if I should put a 150A fuse on the ground wire since I have it laying around being unused. Back to the original question - have the nuts spot welded?

 

[EclipticalGS]

beat you to it. Im revising it, I actually do CAD Design for I/0 Cards and such, so ill make simpler more effective diagram when you get everything sorted out, my paint sketch was off of your older diagram, I took it off because I realised you made some mistakes in it.

you should be using circuit breakers, there a lot easier to work with, and you wont need one for the ground...

 

[turbosax2]

I use SS Nylock nuts under the car with fender washers, and inside I use flat washers (non-fender) with Nylock nuts. I think I just had to hold the rods with vice grips in the middle to get everything snugged up. I wouldn't weld the nuts, though.

 

[DGajre777]

beat you to it. Im revising it, I actually do CAD Design for I/0 Cards and such, so ill make simpler more effective diagram when you get everything sorted out, my paint sketch was off of your older diagram, I took it off because I realised you made some mistakes in it.

you should be using circuit breakers, there a lot easier to work with, and you wont need one for the ground...

I have one 150 Amp circuit breaker and another 60 Amp one for the Amplifier. I've already spent $40 on a Stinger Fuse Holder and 150A fuse, hence the "want" to use it.

P.s. There weren't any errors on my diagram, there were errors in the way you read it. This thread has moved beyond wiring and is now on nut mounting. I'm not in need of a new diagram, please don't clutter my thread. If you'd like to work on one to post it, please e-mail it me and I'll gladly post it on, after ensuring that it is correct.

 

[WickedQuikAWD]

You can buy power cable from a boat supply store to limit the gauge and weight you need. This is because boat cable is silver coated copper wire and it conducts electricity far more efficiently than standard copper. Mil spec crimp connectors also work wonders and are far superior to soldered connections. They use silver coated copper wire in military airplanes because it is far lighter because they don't need to use such heavy gauge wire to conduct the same amount of electricity. Hope this helps in some way.

 

[DGajre777]

You can buy power cable from a boat supply store to limit the gauge and weight you need. This is because boat cable is silver coated copper wire and it conducts electricity far more efficiently than standard copper. Mil spec crimp connectors also work wonders and are far superior to soldered connections. They use silver coated copper wire in military airplanes because it is far lighter because they don't need to use such heavy gauge wire to conduct the same amount of electricity. Hope this helps in some way.

Interesting, didn't know about the silver coated copper wire. Thanks for the info! I used compression fittings everywhere including the battery terminals, I'm not a fan of crimp connectors. I'll ask our flight school's maintenance shop what kind of wiring they use.

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I use SS Nylock nuts under the car with fender washers, and inside I use flat washers (non-fender) with Nylock nuts. I think I just had to hold the rods with vice grips in the middle to get everything snugged up. I wouldn't weld the nuts, though.

I thought about doing that, but then I thought that there isn't enough surface area under the SS nylock nuts to distribute force along the fender washers if I got rear-ended and the battery was "pushed" up which is why I went with the flanged nut.

Maybe I can special order some Flanged SS Nylock nuts (if they even make them), if not then I could use SS Fender Washers > SS Flat Washers > SS Nylock Nuts under the car.

Any specific reason for not spot welding the flanged nuts and fender washer to the car? I could feed the SS rod through and install new SS Nylock nuts on the inside of the car to secure it (since the Nylon will burn off while nut/fender is being welded anyways).

 

[EclipticalGS]

I chose post 7 to "re-draw" that's why it didnt turn out right, and on a side note other than using nylon locking nuts which is a given, That capacitor in your wiring is more than likely not needed. Those 1 farad and 2 farad caps are junk, and mostly add more draw after they "run" out from continuos pounding.

Anytime I use one amp on one battery, especially an optima, it's either pheonix power grid (10 farad) or no cap.

Just a tip.

 

[turbosax2]

McMaster sells "Nylon-Insert Hex Flange Locknuts " but I don't believe you'll be able to find any in SS. I wouldn't weld because I don't like making things like that permanent if they don't have to be, just my preference.

 

[DGajre777]

I chose post 7 to "re-draw" that's why it didnt turn out right, and on a side note other than using nylon locking nuts which is a given, That capacitor in your wiring is more than likely not needed. Those 1 farad and 2 farad caps are junk, and mostly add more draw after they "run" out from continuos pounding.

Anytime I use one amp on one battery, especially an optima, it's either pheonix power grid (10 farad) or no cap.

Just a tip.

Thanks! I originally removed the cap and ran without a cap for 6 months but I would get unstable voltage in the car and the amp, on occasion, would randomly shut off during periods of continuous bass at high volumes (I listen to trance, hard trance and some house/rave music).

I run a highly efficient Class D 600 Watt x 2 Ohms Mono Alpine Amp and a 1/2 farad cap. The only thing that I could figure out is that with the car running the battery couldn't output current fast enough... and the capacitor went back in. I can't imagine the system needing a bigger capacitor with the cap being less than 3 feet from the battery. I'll be changing the battery and cap grounding point to see if that's an issue.

McMaster sells "Nylon-Insert Hex Flange Locknuts " but I don't believe you'll be able to find any in SS. I wouldn't weld because I don't like making things like that permanent if they don't have to be, just my preference.

I share the same preference, but I'm running out of options if I can't find any in SS and I don't want to use non-SS nylock nuts under the car. It's getting a bit annoying to get under the car once a week to make sure that the nuts are still secure!

 

[EclipticalGS]

I run a highly efficient Class D 600 Watt x 2 Ohms Mono Alpine Amp and a 1/2 farad cap. The only thing that I could figure out is that with the car running the battery couldn't output current fast enough... and the capacitor went back in. I can't imagine the system needing a bigger capacitor with the cap being less than 3 feet from the battery. I'll be changing the battery and cap grounding point to see if that's an issue.

secure!

Run another ground from the back to the front original battery ground, or find another one up front. My car never acted right until I added this ground.

Your amp is pushing 600 watts x 2-ohms, did you check your subs output to see if it was ~2ohms.. Those effecient alpines love to overheat with constant pounding, the whole reason I switched to the Hifonixs Brutus (1800watts x 1ohm)...

Ive seen on a friends set-up with (1) 4-ohm DVC (dual voice coil) alpine type-r that was bridged down to what was supposed to be ~2 now, well it was 1.7 and kept constantly putting his amp into safe mode on hot days.

Amp's with fans are where its at, especially if you dont have the privacy cargo cover thing, and your amps in the sunlight.

Good luck to you, more grounds is the best thing i can tell you, as long as you dont get into a ground loop you shouldnt have any problems.

I do admire your wiring and battery tray too!

 

[snowborder714]

I share the same preference, but I'm running out of options if I can't find any in SS and I don't want to use non-SS nylock nuts under the car. It's getting a bit annoying to get under the car once a week to make sure that the nuts are still secure!

Have you had issues in the past, or just being overly paranoid?

Maybe apply a healthy dose of red threadlocker instead of welding.

 

[EclipticalGS]

If hes OCD like me, I can attest to doing that. Im not going to lie, I had to torque and re-apply thread locker, torque and re-apply again to my Driven gear bolt about 6 times until it felt comfortable, I wont even mention the oil pump pulley nut. But im confident now

 

[DGajre777]

Run another ground from the back to the front original battery ground, or find another one up front. My car never acted right until I added this ground.

I have one additional ground up front, it connects from the power steering pump frame to the side of the car. It's the red one on the right in the pic below. Ignore the fuel filter vented over the tranny mount, that was a temporary thing before I got a catch can setup.

Your amp is pushing 600 watts x 2-ohms, did you check your subs output to see if it was ~2ohms.. Those effecient alpines love to overheat with constant pounding, the whole reason I switched to the Hifonixs Brutus (1800watts x 1ohm)

Amp's with fans are where its at, especially if you dont have the privacy cargo cover thing, and your amps in the sunlight.

Yes, 2 x 12" Polk MOMOs DVCs wired to run at 2 Ohms using 16G wiring. My amp doesn't have any fans but it doesn't heat up either. The amp is mounted on the back of the box with the cargo privacy cover, but it shuts off even in an enclosed parking lot on a cool day after just turning the car on and pounding the bass within 1 minute, which is why I'm thinking it is more of a ground issue.

Now that I think about it, the main battery ground has a very thin 0G gold plated crimp connector. I bought it this way from my local audio shop since they had an extra one laying around and I never replaced it with the compression fitting. I have a feeling that this might be the problem. I have an extra 0 gauge compression fitting, I'll replace it and see if it fixes the random amp shut off issue.

I do admire your wiring and battery tray too!

Thank you! I appreciate your input.