Balance shaft broken question

[joesevo8]

A friend of mine bought a 95 GSX with the timing all out of whack, and when we took apart the front assembly we found that the balance shaft belt was broken. We are going to pull the motor and rebuild it in a few weeks or so, my question is, once we redo the timing correctly can the balance shaft belt be left off (we are removing the shafts when we rebuild) for the time being so he can drive the car, and not hurt anything?

 

[brute]

You can do that, but try to leave that time at a minimum. Get them taken out correctly soon. It will be a little rougher feeling, and at like 3000 RPM, a crazy vibration starts. This is due to one balance shaft spinning while the other one is not.

 

[fourreGsixty3]

Check out our vendor's. They have a BS removal kit so that way you can take the 5lb "lead weight"(BS) out, and no more belt to worr about snapping, and taking out your T-belt. You will want to remove them completely over leaving them in without the belt because one will be spinning, and one wont.

A simple search, would have yeilded many result's that would have awnsered your question.

 

[joesevo8]

i think we are just going to wait to drive it until its rebuilt, thanks for the replies

 

[andrew_spo]

Well this is a question I just had my balance shaft belt rip and I was wondering when I put the new belt in do you not tighten the tensioner as tight as you can? I replaced it and the second one almost did the same thing so I ruined it. So before I put another one on I was wondering if I leave some slack and if the balance shaft gear should be really easy or just pretty easy to spin?

 

[DSMunknown]

You can do that, but try to leave that time at a minimum. Get them taken out correctly soon. It will be a little rougher feeling, and at like 3000 RPM, a crazy vibration starts. This is due to one balance shaft spinning while the other one is not.

Derek, I came across this link recently.

People run cars for 100,000 miles without the balance shaft belt on as a poor man's method for NOT pulling the front shaft.

I have had my own issues with the BS belt breaking/wearing off prematurely. I just had a new one put on a few months ago, but am debating on whether I should just take a box cutter to the damn thing to keep my mind at ease. Are there any (other) factors/considerations/concerns I should take into account before taking off the BS belt (and before I purchase a BS removal kit)?

 

[Fastazzevo]

I need to do the balance shaft delete myself.

You can do it without pulling the engine right? I understand there is a lot of removal steps, but the whole motor?

 

[dsm-onster]

I've gone tens of thousands of miles w/ no BS belt but w/ the one bs still installed. . . It's not a durability issure simply a butt issue. Butt as in the feeling you get at 3K rpms. I did not notice one ounce of difference w/ my butt. And I have solid polyurethane roll stops and welded motor mounts. . . At worse, the girlfriend or wife will like the ride in the passenger seat .

 

[wret]

I have had my own issues with the BS belt breaking/wearing off prematurely. I just had a new one put on a few months ago, but am debating on whether I should just take a box cutter to the damn thing to keep my mind at ease. Are there any (other) factors/considerations/concerns I should take into account before taking off the BS belt (and before I purchase a BS removal kit)?

I ran for several months on a broken balance shaft belt. The tensioner pulley seized and the belt tore itself to pieces. I consider myself fortunate that the timing belt was not affected. I can't see how there would be any negative effects from deleting the belt and and leaving the shaft in place. It has been speculated that during half the rotation of the shaft, the oil hole is open and may cause oil pressure loss if the shaft happens to be left in this orientation. I don't know anyone to whom this has actually happened.

I say cut the belt and, if you see a reduction in oil pressure, rotate the shaft half a turn.

You can do it without pulling the engine right?

You can do it engine-in but it's pretty hard to remove and replace the front/inner bearing when you don't have straight access to it.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Wait, so if you can just cut the belt and keep on rockin' how come everyone doesn't just do that?
Theres been discussions like this before but I can't seem to find them.

 

[wret]

My anecdotal experience tells me that it's perfectly safe. Expert sources, 1000 AAQ for one, would seem to agree that a deleted "B" belt will not damage the engine (except for the act of breaking one on a running engine). But for some reason the same expert sources always present the balance shaft removal kit, or improvised version, as the proper way to eliminate the balance shaft or balance shaft rotation.

 

[DoyoFCT]

im really amazed at how many ppl half ass this. its not a good idea to just "cut" the belt. if your going to remove it, remove it correctly. or re-install a new bs belt/tensioner correctly.

 

[dsm-onster]

It's not exactly easy to get to. My car is a daily driver. . . And I work on the weekends on my side projects, And I have a wife, And kids. I don't even have much time to get my MAFT calibrated w/ my wideband .

Id doesn't hurt anything. I have welded motormounts and the increase in vibration wasn't noticeable . Why bother w/ it?

 

[wret]

im really amazed at how many ppl half ass this. its not a good idea to just "cut" the belt. if your going to remove it, remove it correctly. or re-install a new bs belt/tensioner correctly.

Care to back that up with a supporting argument or evidence?

 

[SlowChild3]

How bad is the vibration? I only spend a few seconds at 3000 rpms.... So if this is done is it going to wiggle some bolts lose? I have to tighten my exhaust manifold nuts every 4000 or so due to small flex in exhaust. I don't need anything else shaking loose.

*Ya, im from Dayton and no, not friends with this guy" .
VVVVV

 

[DoyoFCT]

Well aside from the fact that its a half ass janky way of eliminating one shaft/belt for no reason. if the belt/tensioner is installed properly it will not fail(unless you are making a considerable amount of power I advise removal of them completely), I worked at a retail performance shop for 4 years, and i now do a lot of sub work for many shops locally working mostly on dsm's. I've seen my fair share of half ass janky mods, and for one i dont think its going to kill the motor. but i have seen the rear shaft spit the inner bearing on many occasions, from a snapped bs belt and out of phase shafts. im not going to sit here and argue about this a second time. I just gave my opinion that it is half ass, and janky. I dont care what you guys do, but i dont see the point in cutting a belt and not removing the shafts entirely. its a very simple/easy modifcation, maybe not as easy as cutting a belt?

 

[wret]

How bad is the vibration? I only spend a few seconds at 3000 rpms.... So if this is done is it going to wiggle some bolts lose? I have to tighten my exhaust manifold nuts every 4000 or so due to small flex in exhaust. I don't need anything else shaking loose.

*Ya, im from Dayton and no, not friends with this guy" .
VVVVV

My car has had many variations of the balance shaft theme. Here's how I would rate the vibration:

1. Both shafts spinning in proper sync.
2. Rear shaft spinning, "b" belt non-functional or removed.
3. Balance shafts removed in the non half-assed, janky way
4. Rear shaft 180° out of sync.

2 and 3 are really not bad and as stated by many, you will forget about it and not sense a difference after a few days. 4 is annoying, especially when many plastic trim pieces in the car pick up the harmony and sing along.

 

[dsm-onster]

Well aside from the fact that its a half ass janky way of eliminating one shaft/belt for no reason. if the belt/tensioner is installed properly it will not fail(unless you are making a considerable amount of power I advise removal of them completely), I worked at a retail performance shop for 4 years, and i now do a lot of sub work for many shops locally working mostly on dsm's. I've seen my fair share of half ass janky mods, and for one i dont think its going to kill the motor. but i have seen the rear shaft spit the inner bearing on many occasions, from a snapped bs belt and out of phase shafts. im not going to sit here and argue about this a second time. I just gave my opinion that it is half ass, and janky. I dont care what you guys do, but i dont see the point in cutting a belt and not removing the shafts entirely. its a very simple/easy modifcation, maybe not as easy as cutting a belt?

How does a BS bearing have any more stress on it when out of phase? or the belt is off? The BS is "wobbly" or has imbalance purposefully, with or with out the other BS in phase or even rotating. . .

I know that the bs assembly rpms are 2 X the engine rpms. . .So of course there's a concern for having them there at all. The converse of that arguement is that the oil pump shaft is fully supported in the oilpump case and farther back in the block. So many who have decided to rev high have infact cut the balance weight off the rear shaft. This still keeps one of the 2 X rpm BS bearings in the block though. . .

 

[PieEyedPiper]

So just for further clarification, If I just cut the belt the front shaft would not move and do no harm, and the rear would still spin normally not causing any oil pressure or wear issues, correct?

Also if I just cut the belt would I recieve the full benefit of having no BS? I'm mostly interested in doing this mod for decreased rotating mass since I think my car is absolutely gutless when starting in first and even in low rpms of higher gears, when not in boost of course.

 

[dsm-onster]

So just for further clarification, If I just cut the belt the front shaft would not move and do no harm, and the rear would still spin normally not causing any oil pressure or wear issues, correct?

I nor anyone I've ever known to drive aDSM that has done this has reported a problem . . .

Also if I just cut the belt would I recieve the full benefit of having no BS?

Half way. Remember, you have another balance shaft driving incorperated into the oil pump shaft which his run off of the timing belt.

I'm mostly interested in doing this mod for decreased rotating mass since I think my car is absolutely gutless when starting in first and even in low rpms of higher gears, when not in boost of course.

Are you used to driving higher displacement engines? A 4 cylinder out of boost pretty much sucks, Honda or not. . .

 

[DoyoFCT]

How does a BS bearing have any more stress on it when out of phase? or the belt is off? The BS is "wobbly" or has imbalance purposefully, with or with out the other BS in phase or even rotating. . .

I know that the bs assembly rpms are 2 X the engine rpms. . .So of course there's a concern for having them there at all. The converse of that arguement is that the oil pump shaft is fully supported in the oilpump case and farther back in the block. So many who have decided to rev high have infact cut the balance weight off the rear shaft. This still keeps one of the 2 X rpm BS bearings in the block though. . .

Im not saying all this as a theory. ive witnessed two motors(that ive torn down for customers) that ppl have brought to me spit inner bs bearings from out of phase balance shafts. one of which was soo bad that when i pulled the oil pan the bearing was lying on the bottom and it had chewed thru most of the block where the bearing was. it also wiped out all the main bearings and 2 rod bearings in the process. the other was less damaging but the vibrations made the oil sump fall off.(im assuming whoever installed it did not install it correctly either) it was a 6bolt swapped 2g, and had the 2g oil sump installed so yea i thought that was odd. but the inner bearing was half way spit out on that car as well.

Im tired of talking about this subject , everyone has an opinion I was merely sharing my thoughts on what i thought was half ass, there are no benefits to cutting the bs belt and leaving the shafts in. the effort involved to do this you could replace the belt/tensioner quite easily. and if your already tearing the car down like this, why not just eliminate them completely.

 

[dsm-onster]

Well. Ok. At least I don't have my BS belt. So my balance shafts can't be out of phase .

 

[wret]

Im tired of talking about this subject , everyone has an opinion I was merely sharing my thoughts on what i thought was half ass, there are no benefits to cutting the bs belt and leaving the shafts in. the effort involved to do this you could replace the belt/tensioner quite easily. and if your already tearing the car down like this, why not just eliminate them completely.

No benefits? How about removing the risk of the belt breaking and wiping out the timing belt. I think that benefit is obvious. So far you have not presented a valid reason why the belt should not be removed. If there is one, I would really like to hear it.

 

[DoyoFCT]

I have yet to see a properly installed balance shaft belt/tensioner fail. the only belts ive seen fail are generally cars with 150k+ miles with a belt that has been ignored due to lazyness, or installer error and too much tension. or someone who replaced the bs belt and did not replace the tensioner pulley and the pulley seized up or failed.


like i stated before if your going to take the time to tear the car down, remove them or replace the belt/tensioner. i dont need to prove anything to you, you have your own opinion but i Just didnt want someone to tear their car down and cut the belt without hearing another opinion.



and i still believe that cutting the belt will possibly change oil pressure in some way. but again that is only a theory because i would never just remove the belt in the first place so i dunno, it is much more beneficial to remove the balance shafts entirely than just the belt. period.

 

[dsm-onster]

and i still believe that cutting the belt will possibly change oil pressure in some way. but again that is only a theory because i would never just remove the belt in the first place so i dunno, it is much more beneficial to remove the balance shafts entirely than just the belt. period.

Well for everyone to know, I've seen no change in oil pressure. I'v eseen no change in the_jester's engine, another dsmer here. Nor in my old 92 n/a 4g63. But that's just these thee cars. . .