General Attention High Compression E85 Users-Ignition timing questions

[Kapok6]

^That's what I plan on doing. That and draining the t-case fluid to see if any metal comes out. T case would be my hope as that is easy to swap out. But I know it could be other things as well.

Also, I don't have a clutch, it's an auto, but I know what you were getting at.

 

[Kapok6]

I never updated this. Whoops. It was a broken rear axle. Apparently the stock 3 bolt was fine at 1.9 60ft's, but it did not like low 1.7's. Lulz. So a 4 bolt went in, but alas, it was too late to hit the track again.

I have a DSM82 HTA on now until I have the funds to have a custom manifold, down pipe, and upper IC pipe made to fit this borg warner on.

Car is out of fuel being that I have to run it so rich on this motor to keep knock at bay. Time to upgrade to -08an lines, double pumper, and 2000cc injectors. Hoping this go round with aftermarket lines is not a disaster like my last run was with e85. (All kind of particulates and clogging of the injectors and fuel filter within 50mi of driving, even with PTFE lines. :/ )

 

[biglady112]

Go with a large single pump. Don't handicap yourself with two worthless pumps.

 

[Black'95]

Go with a large single pump. Don't handicap yourself with two worthless pumps.

Two worthless pumps?

 

[Kapok6]

Go with a large single pump. Don't handicap yourself with two worthless pumps.

I already have and extra pump, so modifying one of my hanger assemblies isn't that difficult.

Assuming i'm not happy with the results, what single fuel pump would you suggest incorporating that will supply enough fuel for this?

I'm also a little confused on the "worthless part." My walbro 450 and stock lines and stock filter have easily met my needs up to this point...

 

[bastarddsm]

I would assume he's thinking of a magnafuel MP4303 or some sort of a weldon. I don't think either of them is as reliable as a bosch 044.
FWIW, I've been running a pair of 255 externals for about 5 years now. I build a pickup out of some stainless tubing, mesh and a -10 bulkhead. I let the 255's draw up to it. So far They have been plenty of fuel for me, running through a stock line and filter. (3200lbs 141mph traps) I even use a restrictive 3/8" flare Tee fitting to combine the output of the two pumps. I like running them external as you can easily run 10ga wire to them off a decent relay setup. It really takes some of the complications away from feeding massive power into the tank, and then figuring out how to mount 2 pumps. (especially giant 044's.)

If your open to do some reasearch and experimentation, AMS has a killer looking brushless screw pump. Good flow even at high pressure. The downside is that it's expensive as hell, but I did find a couple posts of guys sourcing the pump and controller else where cheaper.

Anyway if you want to make the move to externals, I know a guy that can make you a pretty sweet pickup. I think I have pictures posted on here somewhere. Maybe even in my build thread.

 

[Kapok6]

I would assume he's thinking of a magnafuel MP4303 or some sort of a weldon. I don't think either of them is as reliable as a bosch 044.
FWIW, I've been running a pair of 255 externals for about 5 years now. I build a pickup out of some stainless tubing, mesh and a -10 bulkhead. I let the 255's draw up to it. So far They have been plenty of fuel for me, running through a stock line and filter. (3200lbs 141mph traps) I even use a restrictive 3/8" flare Tee fitting to combine the output of the two pumps. I like running them external as you can easily run 10ga wire to them off a decent relay setup. It really takes some of the complications away from feeding massive power into the tank, and then figuring out how to mount 2 pumps. (especially giant 044's.)

If your open to do some reasearch and experimentation, AMS has a killer looking brushless screw pump. Good flow even at high pressure. The downside is that it's expensive as hell, but I did find a couple posts of guys sourcing the pump and controller else where cheaper.

Anyway if you want to make the move to externals, I know a guy that can make you a pretty sweet pickup. I think I have pictures posted on here somewhere. Maybe even in my build thread.

I may be open to that down the road. I'll see how the in-tank setup works first since I already have 2 power wires running back there, (one 10ga and one 8ga). I couldn't fit 2 450's in there, but a 450 and a wally 255/aeromotive 340/aem 320 will fit in there. Thinking of just powering one the whole time and the other off a pressure switch.

Big cams and a high comp motor are really teaching me a lot.

Stock lines, oem filter, and a single wally with FIC 1550's worked GREAT with the DSM76, HKS 272's, and 8.5 compression.

Move to 10.5 comp, GSC S2's and the car needing 9.2-9.5 afr's around peak torque and 10-10.5 after peak torque, took it's toll on my fuel system. On my old setup at 30psi, when it was a 130-131 trap car, IDC's were never really higher than 65%. On this new motor, seeing over 100% up top is the freaking norm, especially after adding a bigger turbo, which isn't even the biggest one I plan on putting on.

It's been a heck of a journey, but i'm learning, slowly but surely.

Whenever I go to put this other shell together, i'd like to go back to low compression, big turbo, big boost, stock lines/filter, smaller injectors, and opening my tuning window back up.

 

[biglady112]

Big voltage draw for poor flow, packaging intank is a pain, supplying for external is just as much a cluster, most people use them incorrectly in series rather then parallel, more parts to fail is the biggest in my book.

I have personally been in a car where one of the two intake pumps caught fire because the bare minimum effort was put in to supply power. I have also been at the track when one failed in the middle of a standing mile run. Had it not been for an evasive datalogging system with programmed warning lights on the dash he certainly would have lost the motor. Happened twice to the same car. Wires came loose on one run, a few years later the same pump failed all together. It is a huge crutch to be reliant on two fuel pumps, or three or four like so many do. One fuel pump is the only smart way to go if you value your engine. If it goes out, you have no fuel and the car won't run. Pretty simple and redundant.

Back to my original complaint. As far as being worthless, where we play, the twin pump situation has had to be upgraded to a large single or mechanical probably a dozen times or more on locals cars because they don't supply enough fuel for a Damn thing. They run out of steam quickly on all the big boy cars we play with here.

Spend your money once, spend it right. It is your car you can choose your own fate. I would not risk my motor on that type of crutch nor would I only fuel my motor halfway. If you want big power, provide it with a proper fuel pump. As far as being reliable, i will assume that is an uneducated comment as I personally have never seen a large, quality pump have any sort of failures and not perform. Walbro fuel pumps, time and again. Far too many times and again now that I think about how many I have had to help replace over the years.

With that being said I run a mechanical pump on my car. Of course it is not for everyone but, I am not messing around and fueling is not something I only dip my toes into. I have been running 8-10 injectors for nearly ten years on my own cars and so have my friends as that is where our demands are. Again, not for everyone but, neither should be multiple fuel pump setups.

I will say this, going with an external walbro(s) has proved to be a much better move than trying to cobble them into a stock fuel tank. Much less issues for those folks I have seen go that route if they stick to their baby fuel pump guns.

 

[Kapok6]

So what would your recommendation be if/when I decide to go to an external single pump? (I don't see myself making anymore than 800hp at the crank in the next decade).

 

[biglady112]

Magnafuel is my first choice. I am biased as i am semi local to them and have been to the facility twice. Customer service is second to none. Weldon my second. Never ever an aeromotive.

 

[bling5tatus]

Hey BigLady can you talk about how you feed fuel to your mechanical pump? I have a cam driven weldon that I plan to use but I'm not sure where the lift pump should feed to. Should it just fill up the line between the tank and weldon? Another question is, the lift pump should be on a mechanical switch because you only use it to prime the line and start the car. Once the cam is spinning the weldon will draw it's own fuel from the tank right? I was told if the feed line becomes empty the mechanical pump won't suck air and draw fuel from the tank. Also, where does a fuel surge tank plumb into all of this? Sorry to ask so many questions in this thread but it's kind of on topic.

 

[biglady112]

I run a feeder inline walbro on a switch. There is a ball valve on a separate line that is used for priming. Close the valve, turn the switch on, start the car. Once started open the ball valve and shut the primer pump off.

From the filter it Y's into a -10 towards the ball valve and a -6 towards the inline walbro. After the ball valve and after the walbro it Y's back into a -10 and goes to the pump from there. There is no surge tank in the system. Once the mechanical is primed it will stay drawing fuel until the tank is run dry. This way draws fuel from both the -10 main hose through the ball valve and through the inline primer pump while running. And requires no voltage loss to keep the car running.

You could always leave just the feeder and line only as long as the mechanical is before the regulator. The only problem is you will have to draw through the primer pump, thus limiting yourself.

If you want a surge tank then you want a primer pump running at all times lifting fuel from the main tank. You feed the surge tank with a primer, feed the mechanical with the surge tank and return from the regulator back to the surge tank. Then there is an overflow that would go from the surge tank back to the main tank. You have to keep the surge tank fed, so the primer pump always runs and is a part of the active fuel system. Which is voltage loss and more parts and complication there.

Unless you can figure a way to get a tank really close to the mechanical pump as close to level as possible. They do a horrible job priming and lifting/drawing fuel on their own. If they are gravity fed it is not an issue and none of the above applies. Pretty hard to package with any kind of significant capacity on a stock, fwd based dsm.