AEM AEM EMS series 1 no lift to shift?

[Elpizer2]

Hi guys

Do you know how to do no lift to shift in a AEM EMS 1 plug and play 4g63t 1G?

 

[DSMPT]

You already have most of the information you want to know in the PDF manual I sent you in the other thread. I don't want to be mean but please read it and get used to the software more by trial and error. At least you have to make your car running without issues with the AEM v1 first before thinking about advanced functions. Otherwise, you wouldn't probably understand even someone would answer your question.

 

[CrackedDSM]

You already have most of the information you want to know in the PDF manual I sent you in the other thread. I don't want to be mean but please read it and get used to the software more by trial and error. At least you have to make your car running without issues with the AEM v1 first before thinking about advanced functions. Otherwise, you wouldn't probably understand even someone would answer your question.

I want to be mean....


Not gonna be, but I want to.

 

[Dusty Landrum]

Not to mention reviving every thread from almost 20 years ago...

 

[DSMPT]

Hi guys

Do you know how to do no lift to shift in a AEM EMS 1 plug and play 4g63t 1G?

I just did a quick search in the manual. Read the chapter of "2 Step Rev Limiter" and "Switched Ignition Retard and Shift Cut Functions". Those are probably the info you are looking for. But again better do this after making the engine running stably. If you don't understand what you are doing, that would make a mess in the software and it may be more difficult to start the engine.

 

[erikoberdorfer]

Hello,
I am attempting to do NLTS using my AEM series 1. I have the "switch retard" input to switch #5 on my ECU, which is hooked up to my clutch switch. In between the clutch switch and the ECU I have a toggle switch. My thought was that this will only allow NLTS to occur when I engage the toggle switch.

Does anyone have experience with this setup? Any flaws in my setup? Any recommendations for the associated shift cut parameters in the options menu?

Under the parameters window, when I engage the toggle switch and then step on the clutch pedal I see switch ret turn on, so it should be working.

 

[DSMPT]

My thought was that this will only allow NLTS to occur when I engage the toggle switch.

Supposed to be yes. I use it with AEM series 2, not series 1 though. If you want to subtract different number of ignition timing by engine speed or boost, maybe you can use the fuel/ignition map for nitrous control by activating it with the same way with the clutch switch, if you don't use the nitrous control. And you can also use a shift cut knob or strain gauge knob with 5v instead of clutch switch to turn the ignition retard or/and ignition cut on.

Do you have the AEMPro manual? I remember it shows everything in there.

 

[erikoberdorfer]

Hello,
I was able to try this out yesterday. With the toggle switch set to "on", every time I engage the clutch pedal the switch retard function engages. This causes the timing to cut and the engine responds accordingly. So, backing out of the garage, starting off from a stop light etc. is a bit of a challenge. However, when driving normally, if I turn the toggle switch off, shift retard is not active and it drives normally. Therefore when I intend to go full throttle I switched the toggle switch on and when I engage the clutch, the aem does the shift retard function. This really seems to help the dogbox shift quickly. I think the timing for re-engaging the timing after the clutch is re-engaged needs to be tweaked though, but for a first test it worked well.

To continue using the toggle switch, I need to tell the circuit when I am in 1st gear. That would allow me to launch the car with the clutch pedal and then once I shift to second / third/ etc the shift cut would engage. This sounds like it could be done with a strain / microswitch shift knob. With that I would think you could turn the rev retard on when you want to do a run and keep your hand off the shifter between gears. Or maybe something that engages when in first gear only like a little micro switch could be considered.

Thanks for the advice on the AEM manual. I did find a lot of info in there to set this up. I used the cut times in the manual, which work but I think the "restore" rate needs to be faster for me. It would be great if I got analog input "switch #7" working with my clutch pedal as the input for this thing. That way i could set more parameters for this to work. I am not understanding how to do this at the moment. It seems like the rally antilag funciton i was using (only cutting fuel) might be tried again too- but maybe try to cut ignition too? Or maybe the 2 step used as a shift cut. Does anyone have any recommendation?

 

[DSMPT]

I was able to try this out yesterday. With the toggle switch set to "on", every time I engage the clutch pedal the switch retard function engages. This causes the timing to cut and the engine responds accordingly. So, backing out of the garage, starting off from a stop light etc. is a bit of a challenge. However, when driving normally, if I turn the toggle switch off, shift retard is not active and it drives normally. Therefore when I intend to go full throttle I switched the toggle switch on and when I engage the clutch, the aem does the shift retard function. This really seems to help the dogbox shift quickly. I think the timing for re-engaging the timing after the clutch is re-engaged needs to be tweaked though, but for a first test it worked well.

It should work like that. But I think while using the clutch switch, the control for this would be limited. But it would be about the idea, if you want to activate the switch retard automatically by more parameters like by using via the switch 7, like TPS position, engine speed, you can use relays instead of the toggle switch. For instance, you use a WOT switch or/and RPM window switch or/and boost pressure switch by connecting to relay as a trigger. In that case you don't need to manually turn on the toggle switch.

It would be great if I got analog input "switch #7" working with my clutch pedal as the input for this thing

Switch 7 is usually for the shift cut knob or strain gauge. The idea I mentioned above is instead of using the switch 7.

This really seems to help the dogbox shift quickly.

So you have a dogbox? Basically the shift retard/flat shift is for that. If you have a dogbox, I recommend to use a shift cut or strain gauge knob, so you don't even need to use the clutch to shift.

I used the cut times in the manual, which work but I think the "restore" rate needs to be faster for me.

I think it's set at 0.5 sec or so. You can change the number by a microsecond.

It seems like the rally antilag funciton i was using (only cutting fuel) might be tried again too- but maybe try to cut ignition too? Or maybe the 2 step used as a shift cut.

You can if it's available with ignition cut, too (not only fuel cut). I mention about using the nitrous ignition/fuel map is for this idea. If you are not using the nitrous control, you can switch the maps only while the clutch switch is active.

 

[erikoberdorfer]

Hiroshi,
Yes I have a ppg dog box in there. I tried to use the rally anti-lag setup outlined by Jake Montgomery in this link (https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/aem-ems/405978-how-setup-nls.html). It works (only tried it with cutting fuel like he did) but I notice the recovery after the shift isn't so great, so I thought the shift retard setup might be better. Also maybe shift retard would allow for more boost in between shifts to be maintained.

If I wanted to try and use the switch #7 analog input, how do I set that up? My strategy would be to still use an input to one pin of the ecu. Here it would be the clutch switch, or maybe in the future a strain or microswitch shift knob. When switch #7 gets this signal and the other parameters I set are met then the shift retard will activate. When I look at the AEM manual for the 1g, I do not see which pin is suitable for switch #7? When I look at the drop downs for switch #7 analog In I guess I dont understand if it can look for a specific input pin. I understand that one can use RPM, boost, etc. but not an actual input to a pin. Am I missing something?

Thanks
Erik

 

[DSMPT]

Hiroshi,
Yes I have a ppg dog box in there. I tried to use the rally anti-lag setup outlined by Jake Montgomery in this link (https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/aem-ems/405978-how-setup-nls.html). It works (only tried it with cutting fuel like he did) but I notice the recovery after the shift isn't so great, so I thought the shift retard setup might be better.

If you have a dogbox, use a shift cut knob or strain gauge knob with switch 7 is the best way to go I believe. It reacts very well in my setup.

Also maybe shift retard would allow for more boost in between shifts to be maintained.

If you have a dogbox and shift with the switch retard/cut, you would be able to shift insanely fast, like within 0.1 sec or less. So the boost pressure doesn't drop much. In the log the boost line would look like an auto car rather than shifting with clutch in manual car.

If I wanted to try and use the switch #7 analog input, how do I set that up?

IIRC the switch 7 is for 5v input.
To use the switch 7, you select one of inputs in the switch 7 option that is available for you, such as MAP input, O2 input, Baro input etc etc. Then you assign the switch 7 "ON" as switch retard input.

For instance, my case is with the series 2 but still similar. I have a dogbox too. I use a strain gauge sensor knob. I wired a 5v analog output from the strain gauge to ECU pin 16 (Baro pressure input), it's because it was simply available. Then I assigned the Baro input as the switch 7 Analog in, then assigned the switch 7 "ON" as input of the switch retard. Then set the TPS position and the engine speed lets say 50% or above and 5000 rpm or above. Something like that.
The switch retard and ignition cut only occurs only when all the parameters are met while I am shitting, and no need to use the clutch.

The clutch switch is not a 5v switch, so I guess logically it can't be used for switch 7 directly. But if you want to stay with the clutch switch for some reason instead of using a shift knob, maybe it's possible if you use the clutch switch as a relay trigger.
For instance, you take a 5v from ECU pin 23 or splice one of 5v sensor's output signal, then wire it to one of analog input ECU pins that can be selected in switch 7 option "through" a relay. So you should be able to send a 0.5v~5v to ECU only while you are pressing in the clutch pedal. Then set the "Switch 7 On Above" as 0v, "Switch #7 On Below" as 5v. In this way if the switch 7 analog input receives somewhere between 0~5v while pressing in the clutch pedal, the switch 7 should be turned on and it would activate the switch retard and ignition cut.
I have never done this way so I can't be 100% sure if it works well though. Just one of ideas.

 

[erikoberdorfer]

Hiroshi,
Thank you for the explanation. I think my misunderstanding stems from thinking that switch #7 could use a simple switched input signal, like the clutch switch. It makes better sense that I would need to have a 5v input signal via a relay or the shift cut knob you are talking about. Then, the other parameters within the switch #7 setup can be used to make the cuts occur when the thresholds I set are met.

 

[DSMPT]

Hiroshi,
Thank you for the explanation. I think my misunderstanding stems from thinking that switch #7 could use a simple switched input signal, like the clutch switch. It makes better sense that I would need to have a 5v input signal via a relay or the shift cut knob you are talking about. Then, the other parameters within the switch #7 setup can be used to make the cuts occur when the thresholds I set are met.

Yes that's correct that the switch 7 is like a virtual switch that only exists in the software by using one of selectable real inputs.

 

[erikoberdorfer]

Hiroshi,
Please take a look at the proposed diagram below (I have not tried this yet). The idea is :
-To allow the use of rev retard on the clutch switch, but to prevent it from activating when the clutch is depressed when launching.
Let me know if this follows the idea you described above. I am using a 6volt Bosch relay for this as the aem output from pin 23 is 5volt. I assume a 6volt relay works here. I also assume a 12v won’t work.

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Thanks,
Erik

 

[DSMPT]

Hiroshi,
Please take a look at the proposed diagram below (I have not tried this yet). The idea is :
-To allow the use of rev retard on the clutch switch, but to prevent it from activating when the clutch is depressed when launching.
Let me know if this follows the idea you described above. I am using a 6volt Bosch relay for this as the aem output from pin 23 is 5volt. I assume a 6volt relay works here. I also assume a 12v won’t work.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Thanks,
Erik

Sorry for replaying late.

Yes that's something I mentioned. Never done by myself but that should activate the switch retard when pressing the clutch pedal.
But Instead of using a 6v relay by using 5v to energize the relay coil, I think using a 12v relay would be safer because we don't know what the current limit of ECU 5v supply is. I think it's very low since it's usually only for sensors, and maybe it's not enough to energize the relay coil.
You can use a 12v relay by connecting a switched 12v to the relay pin #86 instead of 5v.

To allow the use of rev retard on the clutch switch, but to prevent it from activating when the clutch is depressed when launching.

That's true, it may be butting with 2 step launching limiter. You may be able to prevent that by selecting the 2 step input as "Always ON" or "Switch #7 OFF". and setting the switch 7 Min RPM above the 2 step launching rev limiter. The 2 step rev limiter RPM must be below the switch 7 Min RPM. So while the vehicle speed is below the 2 step parameter, the switch 7 won't be tuned on.


I don't know how you control at launching, but if like me, like controlling by slipping the clutch with adjusting clutch pedal and gas pedal position, maybe using the clutch switch for shift cut would be very difficult (not ideal) to sync with the switch retard/ignition cut especially while launching.
Because the switch retard/ignition cut is not like NLTS rev limiter like hitting rev limiter while pressing in the clutch pedal. It would occur only about 0.1-0.2 sec or so once activated regardless of clutch pedal position. So if you would miss the sync timing when pressing the clutch pedal and shifting, you can't shift until it's re-armed which is usually set around 0.5 sec or so.
I can't tell for sure since never done this way though. it's just sharing my opinion. Should try and if it doesn't work well, probably it's time to use a shift cut knob or strain gauge sensor knob.

 

[erikoberdorfer]

Hiroshi,
Thanks for the reply and your advice on this topic. I might try the 12v relay using switch 12v power as well at some point. The method you describe may actually be a bit "easier" as i have noticed that 12vdc relays are more readily available than 5v or 6v relays.

I made an "experimental" 1st gear "detection" switch on the shifter to try and get the NLTS "system" I have to work a little better. I mounted a normally closed microswitch to a custom bracket anchored to the OEM shifter plate hold bolt bolts/bushings. The switch is positioned by the bracket such that when I move the shifter into 1st gear, the shifter arm contacts the switch and "opens it". I still also have the NLTS arming switch wired into the circuit. S

When I want to launch the car I push in the clutch and put the car in 1st (arming switch off), then once in first gear I turn the arming switch "on". Without the 1st gear "detection" switch in the circuit this would have activated the switch retard/ignition cut and caused a stumble. However, with the 1st gear "detection" switch activated (the nlts circuit is now "open") the switch retard/ignition cut stays off while in 1st gear. I have the AEM 2 step activating via my VSS input as well. On a side note I was able to repair the faulty reed switch in my speedometer and now have the oem speed sensor working with AEM series 1. So, I can activate the 2 step and launch (still in 1st gear, switch retard not activated). When I shift to second gear I tap the clutch pedal, switch retard turns on (I keep the gas pedal floored and maintain boost) and shift. Same scenario for the rest of the upshifts.

So far, this setup is working, but I will give it time and some more testing. Maybe this is not 100% ideal, and I will end up going with something else (relay activation, strain gauge shift knob) but I thought I would try it out. I had this idea and wanted to try it out before spending $500+ on a strain gauge (or microswitch) shift knob.

 

[DSMPT]

I have the AEM 2 step activating via my VSS input as well

Yes set the vss parameter is a must. All what I mentioned above is with assuming that you have a working vss signal. You have the EMS v1, so the 1g reed switch usually works, no need to go with an aftermarket vss like EMS v2. In case if you start to see erratic signal in the future, then I would suggest simply go with an aftermarket M22 threaded vss.

So far, this setup is working, but I will give it time and some more testing. Maybe this is not 100% ideal, and I will end up going with something else (relay activation, strain gauge shift knob) but I thought I would try it out. I had this idea and wanted to try it out before spending $500+ on a strain gauge (or microswitch) shift knob.

No worries. I am aware of this part that you would like to try with the clutch switch. And yes, you should try this first and if it works, it works. There is no need to use a shift cut knob or strain gauge sensor.

I just wanted you to keep in mind about my little concern from the difference between NLTS rev limiter vs shift cut retard/ignition cut. The rev limiter would be activated while the switch is activated. But the shift cut is not the usual rev limiter, it's just for reducing the torque in a flash moment only while shifting, and once activated it keeps going on until the duration you set finishes regardless of the switch is on or off, and it can't be re-activated until the re-armed time you set finishes. Which means the shift change must be done within the duration time, at least the dog engagement must be disengaged during the switch retard/ignition cut is occurring otherwise it may damage something.