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Advance/Retard Timing, 4G64 2.4L SOHC

Posted by Viper75, Mar 27, 2020

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  1. Viper75

    Viper75 Probationary Member

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    I would like to know if I can move the crankshaft one tooth forward or backward to change the timing, without damaging the valves.

    I have NOT checked compression yet, going to do that tomorrow. The timing is set at TDC. But, I think it was one tooth off of TDC when we removed the belts, so maybe I can move it one tooth safely?

    I'm coming to the end of my rope with this car.

    03 Stratus coupe sxt, 4G64 2.4L SOHC.

    Brief History:
    Replaced all the belts, crankshaft sensor, fuel pump, bypass pump relay and fuse (because I can't find the dang things), got spark, got fuel in the cylinder, nothing else has been messed with as far as I know. Still no start.
     
  2. ThunderChild

    ThunderChild Supporting VIP

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    I would not recommend advancing or retarding the crank/cam in that manner at all.

    Is the car even attempting to fire? Might want to check the cam and crank sensors and their trigger/reluctor wheels for damage and/or proper operation.

    Fuel pump relay and fuse are in the under hood fuse box. Picture attached for the relay. Not sure what fuse # it is.
    Screenshot_20200327-204843.png
     

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  3. motomattx

    motomattx Proven Member

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    Have you replaced the coolant temp sensor? a bad one can cause a no start.
     

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  4. Viper75

    Viper75 Probationary Member

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    Here is a picture of my fuse box, looks nothing like those I have seen online so far.

    The crankshaft reluctor? wheel looks fine. I have no idea, at this moment, where the camshaft sensor is. I'll have to find that tomorrow.

    I did not know the coolant sensor could cause that. The car was running before we tore it apart, but the crankshaft sensor went belly up the first weekend, LOL.
    20200307_130416.jpg
     
  5. Viper75

    Viper75 Probationary Member

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    Here is the cover. 20200307_130519.jpg

    Those upper two relays are for the horns
     
  6. ThunderChild

    ThunderChild Supporting VIP

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    The coolant temp is a good check.
    I can't see the rest of the relay locations on the fuse box, but if you didn't remove any then it's either a fuse or wiring, or the components themselves.

    Are the plugs fowled?
    How strong is the spark you're getting?
    Double check timing and compression and get back to us.
     

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  7. Viper75

    Viper75 Probationary Member

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    20200328_120914.jpg Is there a service manual available for this engine?

    UPDATE: tested compression after adding a bit of oil into each cylinder:
    Compression: 1 to 4: 120, 110, 110, 85
    with oil 150, 150, 135, 95

    I could only get the fitting finger tight, since I had to thread it in holding the rubber hose.

    cylinder 4 plug is the only one that looks darker than the rest.

    I have tested every fuse and relay I could find in the engine bay and passenger compartment fuse box. Replaced one 15A fuse in passenger compartment, labeled as "socket"
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2020
  8. Viper75

    Viper75 Probationary Member

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    20200328_120801.jpg plug 4
     
  9. Viper75

    Viper75 Probationary Member

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    20200328_120632.jpg 20200328_120712.jpg Fuse/relay boxes, engine compartment
     
  10. ThunderChild

    ThunderChild Supporting VIP

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    That's pretty off compression. Not that I don't think it'd run, but it's not great.
    Are you 100% sure the injectors are firing? This sounds like a lack of fuel, especially if the ignition is working at all.

    Try some starting fluid in the intake when cranking to eliminate fuel as the issue.
     

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  11. Viper75

    Viper75 Probationary Member

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    I was able to pull some codes just now> P0107 and P0113

    MAP sensor voltage too low
    IAT sensor circuit high input.

    I have tried starting fluid twice. It sounds like it wants to start, like it's on the verge of catching. I usually get one pop, kinda like a backfire, then just cranking.

    Would it be safe to unplug the coolant temp sensor and try starting? Or unplugging the camshaft sensor?
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2020
  12. Viper75

    Viper75 Probationary Member

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    Does anyone know for certain where the fuel pump relay and or fuse is? I've supplied a couple of photos earlier.
     
  13. motomattx

    motomattx Proven Member

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    Can you hear the fuel pump come on with a hose in the tank held up to your ear while someone turns the key on and cranks the engine over? Are you getting spark on all four cylinders? we need to simplify this instead of just jumping around trying things here and there all helter skelter like.
     

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  14. ThunderChild

    ThunderChild Supporting VIP

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    Starting to wonder if the ECU might be wounded with those codes.
    Walk us through what you did to this car, please. I feel like I'm missing some vital information.
     

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  15. Viper75

    Viper75 Probationary Member

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    Ok. Let's set the story up. :)
    Car was running and has some oil leaks. You're looking around not sure where the oil is coming from. put some dye into the oil, found dye around the timing area, and on the underside of engine/oil pan. so we jack the car up, pull of tire, timing covers and still can't see where it's coming from. remove timing belts and crank pulley. the crank seal has a small amount of oil in the well, but not enough to indicate a leak from that seal. try to remove balance shaft pulley - not coming off. try to remove camshaft pulley, won't budge. spray down the timing area with brake cleaner and wipe off as much junk as possible. Reassemble with new belts.
    About here, we found that the timing appeared to be off by one crank sprocket tooth. As far as I can remember, we made sure not to move any of the pulleys/sprockets while the belts were off. So, I moved the crank one tooth CCW to align with camshaft. We did rotate the engine manually a few times to be sure that there was no interference and the belt tensioner could settle in. The first time I encountered resistance, so i removed all the spark plugs. Then the engine could turn easily.
    Put everything back together, decide to take it to shop to find/fix the oil leaks. Car cranks but sounds strange. we test crank shaft sensor with DMM, buy a new one and test that. New one gives resistance reading, old one don't. Replaced. Car cranks, no start. Start to think there is a fuel problem, can't here the pump turn on. Spend hours searching for relay/fuse. Nothing seems to point us in the right direction. No fuse box in book or online seems to match ours, except one found on eBay for sale. :) The problem being is that they all show relays in places where we don't have them.
    We pull fuses and relays, checking each one. Several of the relays are labeled as "socket", no idea what that meant. ( I realized later that they mean a wiring connector, but don't indicate which one.)
    We didn't check the ones in the passenger compartment, except those that had the "engine" symbol or were 20A.
    We checked TDC, again, this time using a rod down the spark plug hole. All in all, we checked the timing several times just to be 100%. So, piston 1, TDC aligned with camshaft timing mark on valve cover.

    Tried to run 12V direct to fuel pump, but I had the wrong wires, not realizing that the power sent to the fuel pump connector was for the sending unit. Got new pump, pulled assembly out, began to swap pump in the assembly. Bench tested the old pump, it turned on. Reinstalled pump assembly with new pump, and car still won't start.

    Ran a direct 12V via toggle switch to activate pump while cranking engine. Sometimes it sounds like it might be getting some fuel and I get one or two fires, but I'm not sure.
    I think it was about this time that I pulled/tested every fuse in the passenger compartment fuse box (driver side located). found a 15A blown fuse (OBD socket fuse.) All relays activated and passed current. Pulled codes, as mentioned above, P0107 and P0113.

    Removed and cleaned MAF/IAT sensor assembly with MAF cleaning fluid.

    As of yesterday, began tearing out air intake, and will attempt to remove throttle body today. I'm iffy about backprobing the camshaft sensor wiring connector, as it looks pretty well sealed and I'm cautious about getting dirt and oil into the connectors. But I may try that anyway to test it out.
     
  16. BLACK'98DSM

    BLACK'98DSM Proven Member

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    Check your fuel pressure at the rail.
     

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  17. Viper75

    Viper75 Probationary Member

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    not possible, no valve
     
  18. motomattx

    motomattx Proven Member

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    What camshaft marks on the timing cover are you lining up?
     

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  19. Viper75

    Viper75 Probationary Member

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    There be these two marks. the other pic is the crank marks i'm lining up. 20200229_125606.jpg 20200405_131136.jpg
     
  20. motomattx

    motomattx Proven Member

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    Verify tdc by using the end of a screwdriver through the spark plug hole, carefully turn the engine until the screwdriver reaches the maximum height.
     

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  21. Viper75

    Viper75 Probationary Member

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    Yep, done that, three times, LOL. I'm wondering about the computer now. I will be checking for control voltage at the TPS or MAF next weekend. However, I still cannot get the fuel pump to run in the ON position. As mentioned earlier, I do have a temp bypass installed to run the pump.
     
  22. motomattx

    motomattx Proven Member

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    The pump should only come on during cranking, there is no prime in a 2g setup.
     

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  23. Viper75

    Viper75 Probationary Member

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    Seriously??? Well, i'll be flabbergasted. Ok. I have 12V to each injector, they all have the same resistance, I think it was around 14-15Mohm. I'm thinking I can test for voltage to various sensors, i.e. 5V to the IAC/MAF/ECT sensors. I got that from Ratchets and Wrenches on YouTube.

    If that checks out, then there's gotta be some auto shut down component? or wait...I'll need to crank the engine to verify fuel delivery. If that is good, then ASD or ...

    Well, I haven't put the air intake assembly back on since i cleaned it or the throttle body. I should be able to do that this weekend.

    Did anyone recognize those fuse box photos I posted earlier?
     
  24. Viper75

    Viper75 Probationary Member

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    After about a month or so without working on it, I finally verified that I do have fuel going to the injectors while the engine cranks. Pulled the injectors, did a quick clean. Gonna try and get the air intake installed this weekend.
     

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