About to embark on the FWD to AWD swap

[turboglenn]

Well, I'm trading a turbo , manifold, wastegate and the applicable down pipe and intake tubes for a 1995 AWD talon shell with complete driveline, tank, suspension, and brakes (missing only a few control arms) and am abou to start on the AWD swap

Here's my questions though. Since this car is gutted already it wouldn't be hard to put it back and sell my shell (but i hate the color of this car and it needs a sunroof assembly)

But would it be better for any reason other than being less labor to put my engine and parts into this car and plate it and restore it back to top shape or just swap the driveline into my car?

I love my car,m had it for over 12 years now and i gotta say 'm attached to it. But the swap seems simple enough that i could keep my favorite car and be able to have the AWD benefits

My concerns are.. (and keep in mind i'm a ver compentent mechanic)

1.) Tme to complete from start to finish???? (again, great mechanic and have EVERY tool one one need from plasma cutters, to welding equipment and more)

2.)Is there anything commonly known to spring up as an issue after the swap that would make it better to just start fresh with the AWD shell?

** now some parts interchangability questions.

1.) will the front lower control arms from the FWD work on the AWD setup?

2.)What about the front CV axles? I've heard about convversions for the FWD to use the AWD ones, but can the AWD setuip be used with the FWD shafts for the mean time since i relaly have no budget for this swap? (all the parts to trade i have, and the car is complete less engine and running gear, so i shouldn't need to spend anything excpt maybe a ball joint/control arm here or there)

The last things i have to consider are selling the TRE 2.5 FWD trans and if i should keep the quaife LSD for the AWD unit or just sell it in the FWD trans and use the extra income for something needed in the AWD world

Another BIG ONE.. Being the type of power i'm making and the fct that my 3rd gear went out on a half throttle traffic situation on my OEM trans, how well can i expect a stock AWD trans to hold to power if i'm nbot beating it ??

Last thing i can think of since i don't have on here to look at and can't recall very well.. how much different is the exhaust system on the cat-back and DP? Wondering can i mod my thermal and make it work on the AWD or shoudl i sell it, and also should i mod my new home made DP or just start fresh (rather mod since it's cheaper )

I've searched and read the conversion threads and such, just these are some particulars i didn't find but i'm sure are simple info to alot of you out there

 

[Gstclipse69]

Glenn I'm glad you've decided to do the swap. Ive been reading your posts for awhile and Im impressed by all the things that you do with a fwd. I completed the swap a couple years ago myself. If you search all the threads and whatnot, all the posts from the early 2000's say its dumb and a waste of time and money etc. In today's age it is a much more practical swap and its not all that people make it out to be.

Aside from making a couple mounting points for the fuel tank to bolt up and welding the driveshaft brackets on, it is pretty much a bolt on affair. The awd subframe bolts up, the tranny, transfercase and driveshaft all bolt up. The awd exhaust is much more straight than the fwd. If I remember correctly the fwd has more bends and goes over the subframe whereas the awd follows alongside the driveshaft and goes under the awd subframe. I have read a couple threads about guys modifying their fwd exhausts for an awd platform.
I also think the front fwd control arms will work. Im sure others will chime in with the other questions. Good luck with it.

 

[turboglenn]

Cool thanks, I'm really glad this came up because to be honest i've been thinking about getting rid of the eclipse in general for somethin with a 6 cylinder and a RWD and possibly autop trans.

The only thing i won't have that i need for this according to the guy i'm getting it from is front axles (anyone want to trade or donate some used fron AWD axles?) and the mount on the engine or whatever the left one goes to?

I really have loved the FWD, but frustration at traction under 100 MPH has plagued me even with a quaiffe diff unless i'm running slicks and then that's bothered me that i can't have big brakes becauyse my slicks won't bolt up around anything larger than the OEM GST brakes.


So at least some things to fund the "extras" i'll need for the AWD bullet proofing are

NICE TRE stage 2.5 trans (with or without LSD) (would like to get 2500 with LSD)

LSD seperate or maybe keep it, quaiffe is such a nice unit and if it will fit the AWD trans i might hang on to it

Then i'll have fenders, and some other left over AWD parts that i can maybe sell off to the local yards (i use to manage one) and if i cut the rear quarters into bodyshop usable sections they'd probably give me 75 each for em, and the roof secion, rockers and other parts are good too so if i cut and pallet them i may get say 200 - 300 bucks for all the body pieces, but these cars are totalling out these days so maybe they won't even move, who knows

I found the car does have a title though, it's a 2ga talon though and i lOVE my 2gb eclipse, I wish i were able to build both, keep the eclipse FWD and put a milder engine in it and build the 2ga talon (hmm.. i just might do this *evil grin* I've got a spare 6 bolt with 2g pistons (all stocl) i culd put in the FWD and put my old spare haltech back in it with something like a 16g turbo for economy (talking under 300hp) and have the AWD gutted and mean as hell , nitrouse and all

Nice set of weld draglites with spacers to fit a GS-T (should be able to get 300 out of em)

 

[jdxnc]

1) Took me less than a month, working a couple hours a day, couple days a week. I would say 50ish hours of actual work. It's easy if you know what you are doing. It could be done in a solid weekend if you had all the parts and didn't bother with cleaning/painting parts.

2) No issues with my swap yet, nor a friend of mine.

1)They are the same, I had a stuck axle on the driver side so I just took the while front driver side suspension from the donor car and swapped them, no isses.

2) you have to use the AWD axles, the drivers side FWD inner CV joint won't clear the transfer case.


AWD tranny is much stronger than the FWD ones, I don't forsee much issue with a stock one if you launch correctly.

FWD catback will not work, period, the downpipe can be made to work if the bend is cut out and made straight, but it's easier to just get a whole AWD setup and be done with it.

I was sick of the whole wheel spin till 4th gear, the AWD swap made me fall in love with the car all over again, well worth the work.

 

[turboglenn]

1) Took me less than a month, working a couple hours a day, couple days a week. I would say 50ish hours of actual work. It's easy if you know what you are doing. It could be done in a solid weekend if you had all the parts and didn't bother with cleaning/painting parts.

2) No issues with my swap yet, nor a friend of mine.

1)They are the same, I had a stuck axle on the driver side so I just took the while front driver side suspension from the donor car and swapped them, no isses.

2) you have to use the AWD axles, the drivers side FWD inner CV joint won't clear the transfer case.


AWD tranny is much stronger than the FWD ones, I don't forsee much issue with a stock one if you launch correctly.

FWD catback will not work, period, the downpipe can be made to work if the bend is cut out and made straight, but it's easier to just get a whole AWD setup and be done with it.

I was sick of the whole wheel spin till 4th gear, the AWD swap made me fall in love with the car all over again, well worth the work.

Cool, thanks for that info, as for my down pipe, the bend in mine is done at the test pipe and V-banded on so i can cut and modify it, i made myt whole down pipe out of scrap steam fitter pipe that was left to me and i didn't build it with the bend to start with so that may worl out good

The only things i can now think that i need are

1.) AWD front axles

2.) AWD flywheel (gonna miss my FWD fidnaza 9lb unit )

3.) AWD starter plate

4.) i cna make/modify soe sort of exhaust but will keep it SS even if i have to chop up and modify my thermal (unless i could get a good price out of it)

Now i have to sell

TRE trans (great shape, low miles and NEVER seen the track)

FWD fidanza flywheel (friction plate less than 5k miles on it)

FWD weld drag-lite wheels

and other FWD stuff i don't need

One of my largest excitements in this is FINALLY getting some decent fawking brakes!!!!!! These little FWD units are barely good for a high speed shopping cart, let alone a 500hp GST

After gutting the swap parts fro m the car and cleaning them up at the pressure washer, I think i'll make the nice rectangle plates for the subframe bolts like i've seen in the threads, and once everything is ready i hope to have the swap done in a week tops (and before october is over with) I plan to take delivery of the car tomorrow

Another nice thing is i'll have suspension that's stock again, i makde some custom pillow ball style hats and such for my ebay coil overs and thye've done nothing but blow my tokikos out and rattle like the dickens on turns.. I may even use the whole AWD front subframe unless that's harder than not using it (one of the rearward front control arms bolts was broken by a friend and although i drilled and tapped it i'd rather have an unscathed one in there)

I can't tell you how sick of FWD i've been this year alone, especially or mainly since going to this large 67mm turbo.. in my friends gsx the same turbo almost (he has 6765 i have 6776) but he can use 1st and 2nd gear and they are insanely fun, in my car i am saying "wait till we get up to third, then you can feel the power, i just bounce the rev limiter before that" )

I haven't raced really since our 1/4 mile track shut down but with a AWD setup i MIGHT be willing to run the 1/8th mile a few times and see what i think. But more than anything now that i've sold my 4wd truck to pay some bills and cause it just sat un-maintaned, i can now at least not fear the coming snow, throw some chunky tires on and GO

Will the quiffe diff in the AWD front diff area be much of a help or would I be better selling it and putting that cash towards somethign morebeneficial for AWD?

 

[jdxnc]

I wouldn't go with a Fidanza flywheel on an AWD, if you plan on any daily driving of the car.

2 minutes with a die grinder will make the FWD starter plate work, you need to offset the hole about a 3/8 of an inch.

I really wouldn't bother trying to mod the FWD cat back, too many differences.

I've got Baer Trac front brakes on my car and slotted/drilled oem size rear rotors, it's been decent to me but if I had the cash I would have gone with a full Evo Brembo setup, they look hot as hell on a 2G dsm.

I personally would sell the Quiffe, most of your launch comes from the rear end, but if you continue adding more power later on it might be wise to keep.

 

[Fejery4491]

Now I haven't been been keeping up with your other thread, but are you still planning on going auto as well? Auto+AWD= craziness haha

 

[turboglenn]

Well, here's the BAD NEWS the trans is locked up it seems, the part of the shifter (where the cables hook) that lifts the assembly up and down is missing (not broken, just removed) but you cna't put the trans in any gear, nor can i turn the input shaft with a pair of robogrips and a rag to protect the splines.. Any ideas what might be up? the trans is perfect outside adn the car was a front end collision but on the radiator support was bad the rails are still perfect even

Should i still get it?

i'm trading
t3/t4 60-1 turbo, cast turbinetics t3 manifold, tial 38mm wastegate and the intake and filter to turbo and down pipe i just took off my car. as wel as some older but cleaned and still evenly flowing 720's

I think i shuold get it still for the brakes and having most of the components for the AWD swap, but although i CAN rebuilt the 5 speed trans i don't know what kinda money i'll have into it

as for the Auto trans, if i had an auto i'd be going auto, but it has a 5 speed, which i can deal with i guess, or maybe i'll work a trade of my TRE for a built auto trans or something for it..

I'm really bummed that the trans is locked up in it and he has to "find" the transfer case (but i'm sure he's got it) The good thing is the bargaining ships are to my favor since the city said he HAS To get rid of the car by tomorrow (too may cars sitting at his place and it's not plated or anything which our laws require)

AND if this whole thing falls through and i remain FWD at this point i think i'm definitely selling the TRE for a built auto, or buying an auto and going though it and adding the quaiffe

 

[ed1380]

I wouldn't go with a Fidanza flywheel on an AWD, if you plan on any daily driving of the car.

I'm getting a fidanza soon. Can yousay why?


It might not apply to you if you get the whole awd drivetrain, but the 2ga and 2gb manual transmission and transfer case have to be matched.

 

[turboglenn]

YOU mean the t-case has to match the transmission because of the spline count correct? This i know, and he has a spare trans with t-case on it as well that is in good shape that i'm trying to work a labor trade with him on. But either way i told him the t-case has to match the trans or there's no way it works

the trans being busted is about to smoke this deal for me though too, I can get a 1g shell with trans (no motor) for the price i can get out of the turbo kit and such, but i'd rather convert my 2g that i've owned for years and years than to jsut pull the engine and abandon her for an older bi***

I think the reason people say not to go fidanza on an AWD is that they tend to crack/shatter on hard AWD launches, the only other thing being there's not enough flywheel weight to give good effect for taking off easily on an AWD (FWD has less rotating mass in teh driveline so needs less enertia/flywheel effect)

 

[ed1380]

No. The actual output ratio inside the tranny and t-case.

 

[ed1380]

http://www.rmdsm.org/showthread.php?16186-2g-Transmission-and-Transfer-Case-Differences

 

['97boostinGST]

Pictures!!!

 

[turboglenn]

Well, something else i didn't know, thanks for the info on that.. looks like i'm gonna stay FWD here the guy is now not sure if he has a t-case and this and that and not wanting rid of a good tranny

we will see.. I'll take the bad trans with a t-case with it but no t-case no deal, I can't have this thing here and hunting for parts, the home owners aren't crazy about this to begin with so i have to be fast about it, not hunting this or that with no money for ages

always my damn luck something goes wrong

PIctures of what>? I won't even have the donor car in my possesion until tomorrow (that's if i get it now) I'm looking at a blown engine one in colorado but that's gonna be more than i can do to buy and get it here. Might have to go ack to my plan of getting rid of my shell and going with the 1g auto shell i found.

There's also a 1g shell here local for 400 bucks no engine no trans (unsure about rear end and stuff though)

I"ll have pics and document this as well as most others have IF i get to do it now (i should have never mentioned it on the damn forum and all would be well still, but as soon as i say something good is gonna happen, it doesn't!!!!!!!)

_______________________________________
update

I think this is falling apart, looks like i might be going 1g and tossing my pretty GST body away

some one please help me decide by morning , i have till about 9am

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/hangout/416589-even-worth-trade-now.html

The donor car ust arrived (minus trans and t-case as well as the stub shaft that bolts to the engine) very upset about these parts, may still be a deal breaker since i am finding the same stuff cheap with shipping even. Hopefully he makes up his mind today on what he wants to do so i can get statrted

the rear end looks like i'l have half a day in ripping the subframe and tank out as well as getting the brackets and such that i need out too. will take pics as i start

now that i'm started in officialy i think the hardest part is going to be doing this while it's my DD car..and finding a good tranny i can swing with trade/money while selling the trans in my car right now

 

[jdxnc]

I'm getting a fidanza soon. Can yousay why?

I've talked to a few people who have them and they all complain about the driveability. There is not enough mass and it makes driving difficult if for say you are in stop and go traffic.

turboglenn, if you have any question during the swap feel free to shoot me a message. I have a thread over at Mitsu Media for my swap, might be good to look over. http://www.mitsu-media.com/showthread.php?p=285133

 

[kthackst]

the rear end looks like i'l have half a day in ripping the subframe and tank out as well as getting the brackets and such that i need out too. will take pics as i start

now that i'm started in officialy i think the hardest part is going to be doing this while it's my DD car..and finding a good tranny i can swing with trade/money while selling the trans in my car right now

Nah a rear end removal in one of these things only takes about 1 and a half hours to 2 hours with motivation. Its just how quickly or what you do with it afterward. 4 bolts on each of the upper A arms, bolt trailing arm bolts, brake lines and 4 subframe bolts.

With air tools it only took me an hour and I didnt even know what I was doing.

 

[turboglenn]

Well tonight i battled installing the GSX front brakes, and for the 15 feet or so i got to use them they felt supreme while backing out of the driveway.

Then as i set forth, i made it a total of 5-7 feet adn the right hand lower control arm ball joint seperated (and mind you i live on an incline that's every bit of 37*) So i sat in the road piecing a busted CV back together and strapping a left hand control arm on the right side.. and no matter what the nut wouldn't tighten to save me (normally they snug right up, not tonight!!!!!!!)

So, now i need another FWD axle, but i NEED AWD axles for the swap arghh and i'm a broke ass that lives in so much pain it took 5 hours to do the brake swap and that was hurrying for me.. thanks to the guy i'm getting the AWD swap parts from is gonna let me toss a known good trans and t-case in my car and either replace it or buy myseldf somethig i want and give it back to him (i got a trans in the deal but no t-case an d it's locked up, so this is to get me on the road so i can sell my FWD parts to improve the AWD setup)

I managed to piece the CV back together enough to get back to the driveway at the garage door along with the non-tightened lower control arm nut and on the way back in the brakes felt great once again I noticed that some one had put new hawk pads front and back (boxes were in car and pads are brand new - score one for the under dog team )

Since i will need some AWD front axles and don't want to waste the money on another front drive unti for the time being i'm going to start the swap tomorrow or the next day and plan to have it complete by monday (i'm really really hoping)

The only things i'm missing now are

both front axles

AWD flywheel 6-bolt (but i THINK i have one in storage but knowing y luck it's a damn FWD unit)

The ironic thing is tonight when doingthe brakes i took the best control arms and ball joints of the 2 cars and paired them up to one car,, the one that seemed fine adn didn't even show wobble it the one the seperated in 2 not even 10 yards from the starting line (and that's the mitsubishi! )

 

[bastarddsm]

Glenn,

keep in mind you can get started installing the rear end, and stuff while keeping it fwd until you find a trans. Just don't put the main driveshaft in.

When I did my 1g, I started in the rear and got it all bolted in, then started on the front have.

Honestly, in your situation, I'd refinagle the trade so its a better deal for you, and let him keep the junk trans, and then find a good auto and go that route. If the 5 speed trans isn't perfect you'll spend a fortune to get it fixed, and then it will be a ticking time bomb with 500hp on it.

I've refreshed my trans every year since I went AWD. It blows.

Also, maybe rethink your whole build. It doesn't take a whole lot of power to make an awd feel fast. maybe downgrade to a 16g or 20g setup? A clipped td05h 20g can be made out of a 14b pretty easy anymore, and would pack quite a punch with the rest of your setup. A solid E85 16g car is mid 11's territory these days, and with the hard hit. Mine felt way faster when it went 12.99 on a 16g vs. mid 11's on my holset.

Just a couple idea's anyway. Good luck with the swap.

 

[turboglenn]

WEll, i'm getting the trans tomorrow so sinc ei need an axle anyway, might as well not buy one i will only use for a few days and get teh AWD stuff.

Honestly, I'm not sure where i'm going with the car.. I cannot afford a race car, so i'm trying to make this a more comfortable again DD (got rid of hypercoils and went to stock suspension with this swap)

I want teh AWD for the weather mainly since i sold my truck.

If i go auto i will want a BIG turbo like i'm running to be on board.. anything fast spooling and i'd rather row the gears myself.

The deal with the trans is really not bad as it sounds.. he is gonna hunt me up a t-case to go with that trans and i actually think it's just been dry too long and needs lubed up and spun a bit and will be fine, there's no damage showing at all.

To be honest i've been ready to see my car totalled, stolen anything becyuse i'm so sick of driving it with my injuries to deal with on top of not having any real feeling of "go" in 1st and 2nd gear.. if i want tire spin i want it in RWD platform where it's fun
This swap has given me a little hope of keeping my car, i'm trading parts i have already at my house for the donor car and parts (even if i get that "bad trans" going that's good enough for him.. he just wanted to make sure he kept a good back up, but all his cars are stock anyway

My real quam with the DSM automatic is that there's "no downshifting" once it's built, that would bug me pretty bad, what if i want passing gear to kick in?

most importantly remember i'm disabled, cna barely pay m,y bills and am doing this on what budget i can come up with through trades and services, so it's not going to be "the ultimate build" just an AWD swap..Although i'd still like to go smaller on the turbo, i'm enjoying the 67mm with the newer bigger downpipe, once the spooling starts it's much faster to reach set PR and makes killer power (torque is lower.later, i figurte this is safer on driveline parts though too)

basically i'm having to take what i can get or what i can sell my parts to get..thing is i can't sell parts that i'm running on my car (i've tried, don't get much responce, guess they don't want to wait on them to be pulled) I've had a good standing with Jon at TRE for years because of some old motorcycle chatter we met and started our friendship on so i feel if nothing else he would give me a very reasonable trade in of my TRE FWD trans to a decently built TRE AWD trans..

all in all i'm taking it as it comes. at one point i said i'd not do it because i'd invested too much into being a fast FWD (trans, slicks, quaife etc..) but once the opportunity arrose i no longer thought "god i'm sick of this car" i though to myself "wow, it's like i'll have had what i wanted all along, and even without beating it just to feel the pull of 1st gear with no tire spin will be all the thrills i need for quite some time"

Don't get me wrong, I would go auto, but i'd then have to change the rear end (more moeny i don't have to spare and another can't sell it while using it situation as well) Due to the neighborhood associations rules and the fact that i'm swappin this in a house that's on the real estate market (and i don't own it), This swap isn't very pleasing to anyone but me, and i need to respectfully complete it and get the mess out of here ASAP. Actually i've been told i only\ have till the end of this month to have it DONE, cleaned up, scraps gone and back about daily life, but i thrive under pressure (they gave into me doing it here becayse they convinced me to sell my 4wd winter truck cause it was ugly and was "hurting the look of the house" and for my medical visits and just regular life i NEED to be able to go places when the weather is bad, and the lowered FWD powerhouse was getting harder to get around in even in rain...and i sold them on the "i'll have 4wd again though" )

I get very little pleasure in life anymore, this (i hope) will let me have just a little more on a daily basis. I know it's easy to suggest adding or changing to this or that for the best setup, but although most of us seem alike on here i'm sure most of us are really very different ina lot of ways.. Most days i know i'm going to deal with a lot of physical (and often emtional pains), something will probably go wrong i don't have the money to fix, and a bill will be waiting to be paid if i do come across any money...What i'm sayig is for some, parts are a decision that's rather easily made by checking a bank account or card limit (as i use to be able to buy about anything i wanted as well) BUt these days i often think about folding my hand all together and giving up the fight for a healthy life, the ability to do physical activities, or hell these days just get a woman that's more than a night of fun here and there, but of all the reasonss I have to not want to wake up the next day, i only have ONE that keeps me making sure i do, and that's the hope that tomorrow something might just be a little better, or i might have a little fun, or maybe i just won't be in as much pain as usual..but all that adds up to just looking for something a little better to enjoy, and as petty as a material thing like the AWD swap sounds, i'm sure it's new found fun will go towards many many hours of keeping my mind off the negative (whch lately my car has only put me in a negative mood becayse of worn suspension, rough ride, apinful clutch pushing, pianful climbing in and out etcc.. a little dose of traction, some good brakes and going back to OEM suspension is like me hitting the lotto, so no matter what i end up with for parts, combo etc.. i'm sure i'll enjoy every minute of it adn not regret a thing