About FP18g who runs one?

[My1GLaser]

I've had my 18G6SL2 for a little over a year and it has about 6000 miles, it has seen 30-32 psi of boost, but normally tapers to about 25 by 7500rpms. I really beat the ever-living-hell out of my car every time I drive it. It has about 50 track passes and about 100 3rd gear pulls.

I actually just checked it today while doing a BLT and it still has the same minimal side to side shaft play as when it was new, no in/out, and the compressor wheel looks perfect. Its oiled from the OFH w/-4an, no BS, ported relief valve, 10-40 oil, stockish sized oil return, and always turbo timed.

I will be swapping my exh mani this weekend and I will report back if anything looks weird. I just swapped O2 housings a few weeks ago, and that side of the turbine blades looked great, no oil, no blade damage, no metal shavings.

 

[toofast82]

The e 18g compressor flows 5lb/min more. That's not just slightly more in any catagory.

The dyno results of the 16g vs. the td06sl2 18g shows a 30hp increase favoring the 18g. This was at only 300whp. So no one can claim that the 16g was being pushed to it's limit to render the test unfair favoring the turbo with the larger compressor. Same psi, direct wasp with 30whp increase and neither turbo maxed out in the slightest clearly shows an increase in flow on the turbine side.

But I too have heard that the sl2 turbine comes apart.

If you are referring to the ams test, that was also against a small 16g. Yes, I am aware the s16g is probably more efficient than the b16g at 21psi. But the evo mas has to be worth something over the 1g at the 21psi as well. Directly from FP's site:

"We swapped out the small 16g for the 18g and swapped the 1G MAF for an EVO MAF (to avoid over-run). Both set-ups were tuned on 93 octane @ 21 psi (23 psi spike) with AFR's between 11.0 and 11.5 to 1."

The main advantage that i see is the increased turbine size. Having run both tdo5 b16g and 18g, They are very similar in performance and to me would not be worth upgrading from the b16g or e316g to an 18g. Even though the tdo6sl2 turbine is slightly larger, I would still skip it and go larger than the 18g from a 16g.
If you are just buying a turbo upgrade from say a 14b, the tdo6sl2 has great spoolup and is plenty capable of 400whp+, which would make it a good choice. But if there seems to be these turbine issues, it would scare me away for sure

 

[bastard dsm]

the trust me thing is well... i have confirmed reports about what i said but im not going to say
who said it and why...ill just leave it at that. im not going to knock fp beacause they do make
some great stuff.....but this wasnt one of them. i too have had a tdo5 18g back in the day, but
like i said...if i could do it again i would have bought a e316g instead. with that said, if i could do it
all again i would go borg w. and be happy. as for the test with the small 16g and 18g...well thats a
poor test....they sould have just compaired the 18g to the stock 14b. thats just my 2cents.

 

[Highbooost]

If I was buying new go 18g I wouldn't go from a 16 to an 18 the increase in minimal unless you want the most performance out of a tdo5 housing, but I guess guys go from stock to a small wich isn't much of an upgrade so going from a big 16 to an 18 is the same thing. I loved the 18, the turbo was so rowdy, 28 psi is a lot of boost and that thing sang its praises every day all day..well at least the nice days which is the only days I drive my car

14b 450 cfm
sm 16 500 cfm
bg 16 550
evo 16 supposedly a few more cfms than a big
18g 600 cfm
20g 650 cfm

Later Dr Turbo

 

[dsm-onster]

But if there seems to be these turbine issues, it would scare me away for sure

Definately would shy me away. I agree that running a td05h 18g vs. a 16g is really about the same. Even a td05h 20g will perform similarly to a td05h evo3 16g.

I don't see how the small16g vs. td06sl2 18g test is not a poor test. Why not give reasoning to back your statements? The only change was the turbo and the maf. The evo maf is similar in shape to the 1g maf. The small 16g has the same turbine wheel/housing as the evo3 16g. So the test shows how much more flow you get at pumpgas boost levels over a 16g hotside.

If I was buying new go 18g I wouldn't go from a 16 to an 18 the increase in minimal unless you want the most performance out of a tdo5 housing, but I guess guys go from stock to a small wich isn't much of an upgrade so going from a big 16 to an 18 is the same thing. I loved the 18, the turbo was so rowdy, 28 psi is a lot of boost and that thing sang its praises every day all day..well at least the nice days which is the only days I drive my car

14b 450 cfm
sm 16 500 cfm
bg 16 550
evo 16 supposedly a few more cfms than a big
18g 600 cfm
20g 650 cfm

Stock to a small 16g is a HUGE upgrade. The the small 16g compressor flows 38lb/min the 14b compressor flows 34lb/min. The small 16g has a larger turbine housing than the 14b as well. But, Yes! the difference between the evo3 16g and the 18g is about the same as the 14b and small 16g. About 4lb/min more flow and a better flowing hotside.

All those numbers are based on max cfm at 15psi. No one runs their 16g 18g 20g or pushes their 14b at 15psi. Based on the actual compressor maps, the 18g flows 660cfm and the evo3 16g flows 610cfm.

If they only didn't shred turbine wheels. . . Do the td06sl2 20g turbos eat turbine wheels?

 

[toofast82]

I don't see how the small16g vs. td06sl2 18g test is not a poor test.Why not give reasoning to back your statements?

Bastarddsm said it was a poor test

The only change was the turbo and the maf. The evo maf is similar in shape to the 1g maf. The small 16g has the same turbine wheel/housing as the evo3 16g. So the test shows how much more flow you get at pumpgas boost levels over a 16g hotside.

I'm well aware that the tdo6sl2 turbine gives it a slight advantage over the e316g. The 18g compressor also flows slightly more. Which would equal a more capable turbo with damn close spoolup. I'm not arguing its capabilities
I'm just saying its not worth upgrading to the 18g/sl2 from an e316g. I would go a little bigger if upgrading.
I also wouldn't pass up a good deal on a used e316g to buy a new 18g/sl2
Also are new 18g/sl2 worth the extra $200 when the e316g is on special for $499? You could just go hx35, you know that of all people

Why did you ever upgrade to a 2gmas if there were no advantages? If this test was done at 10psi then I would say it doesn't matter. At 21-23psi, depending on airflow, the 1gmas may be running at its limits? Why don't you put your "fully screened" 1gmas on your h1c and say you don't want to switch back.
So at the 25-30psi that most of these 18g guys run, is the 1gmas, the top choice?

 

[dsm-onster]

Bastarddsm said it was a poor test

I know. My post wasn't neccesarily directed to you specifically. He said that the 18g flows marginally better. And says the AMS dyno results are poor. But he's still not said what his reasoning is for this, or contributed any proof. ????

The AMS test shows a 10% increase in power at only 21psi and 300whp territory. Same car, same flow everywhere else, same dyno. There's no way that the flow increase is marginal with such an increase in whp (30whp at only 21psi). You can hardly get such a gain from a SMIM upgrade.

I'm well aware that the tdo6sl2 turbine gives it a slight advantage over the e316g. The 18g compressor also flows slightly more. Which would equal a more capable turbo with damn close spoolup. I'm not arguing its capabilities
I'm just saying its not worth upgrading to the 18g/sl2 from an e316g. I would go a little bigger if upgrading.
I also wouldn't pass up a good deal on a used e316g to buy a new 18g/sl2
Also are new 18g/sl2 worth the extra $200 when the e316g is on special for $499? You could just go hx35, you know that of all people

Why did you ever upgrade to a 2gmas if there were no advantages? If this test was done at 10psi then I would say it doesn't matter. At 21-23psi, depending on airflow, the 1gmas may be running at its limits? Why don't you put your "fully screened" 1gmas on your h1c and say you don't want to switch back.
So at the 25-30psi that most of these 18g guys run, is the 1gmas, the top choice?

The 1g maf overruns at 30ish lb/min. That has nothing to do with it's flow potential and everything to do with it's metering potential. It won't METER more than about 300whp without running into issues dropping hertz counts. The evo maf is about the same shape as a 1g maf from what I've seen. There's no flow advantage. There's simply a metering advantage. It can meter 600whp worth of air. . . This is the reason why I upgraded to a 2g maf. I was moving air that was beyond what the 1g maf could tell the ecu about accurately.

I'm not disputing that personal preference would cause one to go bigger than a td06sl2 18g if upgrading from their evo3 16g, but 5lb/min is 50whp easily. Period. This is how much the 18g flows over the evo3 16g. And the larger turbine wheel guarantees that. So, because of that, I definately see why at least some would go from an evo3 16g to a td06sl2 18g. And, also because of that, I can definately see why many would choose the td06sl2 18g over the evo3 16g. The larger turbine wheel is very much the reason to get this turbo. I feel the evo3 16g compressor is too big for its 7cm^2 td05h turbine.

Of course, I'd rather get an hx35 over either turbo . But the sl2 18g is what it is. And some people just won't buy anything but FP. Getting the turbine wheel issue remedied ASAP would make this turbo appealing to many who just have to have an FP turbo.

 

[toofast82]

This and the other thread has turned into a 16g vs 18g discussion, which will never get anywhere. The threads points were originally about the turbine issues. I want to hear some reasons/theories for that when these are MHI components which we know are very reliable and durable

 

[Robert Young]

That pic of a ruined turbine wheel is a result of the thrust bearing dying and the turbine rubbing on the heat shield. Most turbos with failed thrust bearings have turbines that look like that. That isn't a picture of a defective turbine. The friction of the turbine head rubbing on the heat shield melts and grinds the turbine until it shatters in some cases, just depends how long you keep operating the unit after the bearing fails.

There isnt anything wrong with those turbines, they are fine. If the bearing doesnt fail then the turbine doesnt rub then the turbine doesn't look like that.

There are lots of reasons why thrust bearings in turbos fail, but it is often related to insufficient oil pressure and feeding the turbo from the cylinder head rather than the oil filter housing on the 4G63 motors.

BOOSTON!
Robert Young

 

[dsm-onster]

Thanx Robert!

but it is often related to insufficient oil pressure and feeding the turbo from the cylinder head rather than the oil filter housing on the 4G63 motors.

But that's another whole can of worms Especially since all td05h center sections turbos come from the factory fed from the head. Don't td05h and td06sl2 and td06h turbos use the same thrust and journal bearings? I mean I've had major smoking issues feeding from the OFH on a 4g63 running the MHI centersection on 3 different turbos (14b, small 16g, and td05h 18g)

 

[Boosted98gsx]

Thanx Robert!


But that's another whole can of worms Especially since all td05h center sections turbos come from the factory fed from the head. Don't td05h and td06sl2 and td06h turbos use the same thrust and journal bearings? I mean I've had major smoking issues feeding from the OFH on a 4g63 running the MHI centersection on 3 different turbos (14b, small 16g, and td05h 18g)

Factory also doesn't spin the turbos up to 30psi of boost either.

 

[Robert Young]

You will have smoking problems if the oil pressure to the turbo gets over 70psi, and lots of race motors do have much higher pressure than that (not to mention more crankcase pressure than a stock engine). Sure, you can have a problem either way.

Thrust bearings are like that air hockey game you played when you were a kid. The puck floats on the cushion of air. If you stack 2 pucks on top of each other, then they doest float anymore, but if you were to turn up the air pressure, then you could make them float again.

Also observe that MMC stopped using head feed on the 95-99 motors. Wonder why? Because it was not enough oil pressure to keep the turbo happy for the length of the warranty period.

We can argue this until we need diapers, but the fact is that you need to supply a STOCK MHI turbo with between 45 and 70psi of oil pressure if you want it to live. And it you are really pushing the turbo, you may want to be extra sure you are doing exactly that.

I wont be posting back, gots a big list of things I need to get done today, but if ANYONE of you would like to discuss this in depth, I am in my office almost all day long almost everyday, and I LOVE talking about this stuff, so just give me a ring. 972-984-1800 ext 108. I do return VM so long as I can understand the message.

BOOSTON!
Robert

 

[dsm-onster]

Factory also doesn't spin the turbos up to 30psi of boost either.

My 18g smoked being fed from the OFH running 28psi. Can't run off the head if pushing the turbo. Can Run off the OFH, since all of mine smoked pushing it or not being fed from the OFH. So, all you're saying is that MHI turbos can't be pushed

But Robert answered the fundamental questions: What broke that wheel? and knowing what did, How much oil pressure does the MHI turbo need? Which is what this thread needs. . .

 

[Robert Young]

I just said how much oil pressure the MHI turbos need. 45-70psi.

 

[dsm-onster]

You stated why that pic in the thread linked to in this thread shows turbine wheel damage. . .

 

[jking29]

Also observe that MMC stopped using head feed on the 95-99 motors. Wonder why? Because it was not enough oil pressure to keep the turbo happy for the length of the warranty period.

But didn't they go back to feeding the turbo from the head on the Evo VIII and IX when they went back to a MHI turbo instead of Garret?

 

[bastard dsm]

the comment on poor test was because i think if your going to compair the 18g to another turbo it would be the e316g. of course it will perform better than the small 16g, i made 375hp @20psi on the small16g and made 400hp at the same boost level on the 18g.....turbo change only. with that said i would like to see why i would spend the extra couple hundred dollors on the 18g sl2 over the evo316g.
what makes it better?

 

[dsm-onster]

You really need to look at what the test was about. It's about turbine flow. All the 16g turbines flow the same. . . .

As respects the AMS test, there's no one who can say "the compressor was maxed out, so that's the reason why the 18g flowed more." The small 16g wasn't remotely maxed out and the 18g compressor flows 7-8lb/min more than that. So, you can't say it's the difference in compressor flow, because neither compressor is maxed out. The 18g flows enough to make 30whp over the 16g upto where the 16g compressor maxes out. And then, BTW, the 18g compressor flows 5lb/min (over 50whp) more than the evo3 16g compressor.

As respects the AMS test, you can't say that it's because one compressor is SO much more efficient than another. Because compressor efficiency has very little to NOTHING to do with flow when no compressor is being pushed to the right of it's map. There's not even 10* difference in manifold temp when there's a drop in efficiency from 70% to 60% at 21psi (the test boost). Turbo outlet temp. An evo3 16g would make the exact same power as a small 16g at that same boost on that dyno with that car tested.

It's about more power per psi; how much more you can see with pumpgas.

Your experience with the 18g vs. the small 16g was a completely maxed out compressor vs. a compressor still very much in it's efficiency range. There's more power there because there's more compressor there. I had a chance to swap my small 16g for my td05h 18g. The 18g performed JUST like my small 16g (minus the slight lag difference) up to choke of the small 16g. And that's logical because they both have the same turbines. If I had a better flowing turbine on the 18g, I would see better flow at lower rpms and lower boost. As it stood, I DID see more power/flow using the td05h 18g vs. the small 16g from 3500rpms on, once I traded the 7cm^2 turbine housing for the BEP turbine housing, which has a better volute design and slightly larger critical area than the 7cm^2 turbine housing.

You can't comment on how much the td06sl2 18g turbine flows over a 16 turbine unless you run one, or you look at the actual comparison between the hotsides made by AMS.

 

[bastard dsm]

well if it was about turbine flow then it sould have been a td05 18g vs sl2 18g.

 

[Boosted98gsx]

well if it was about turbine flow then it sould have been a td05 18g vs sl2 18g.

But we know the weakness of the TD05 18g's is the exhaust flow, since they don't flow anymore than a evo316g.

the point was to compare a new turbine design against something that was very mainstream to advertise it as an alternative for more power (and efficiency) for a couple more bucks.

 

[91-gsx]

So, it has been a while and I just wanted to tell everybody what I found out. After worrying about the barely noticeable play in and out and out on the FP18g I took it to a turbo shop close to were I live. The guy checked it out and said that the slight play is perfectly normal on tubos because there has to be a small gap for oil to travel through the center section and journal bearings. He was surprised that I could even feel anything...

So I took it a step further. Sense I wanted to make sure that it was normal and because I was still a little unsure with the whole "never any side to side" rule with this turbo.. I went ahead and bought a NEW EVO 3 16g from forced performance. The first thing I did when I got the box was make sure everything was fine, and it was blinging like new. I checked the side to side play on the NEW turbo, and it had the same exact amount of play as the FP18g... So I had a great FP18g this whole time and I was not sure... I just wanted to tell everybody that there is supposed to be barely any in and out movement, but YES THERE IS SUPPOSED TO BE SOME IN AND OUT MOVEMENT BY SPECIFICATIONS. I went ahead and called Forced Performance just to make sure as well, and they said yes there is supposed to be barely any play at all, but not very noticeable amounts. The worker at FP also went on to say, they have only had 1 EVO 3 16g come in because of manufacturing defects in all her time working there..

So, that is a lot of info, sorry.. Just wanted to clear up anything I said before or thought. I am going to slap the new 16g on and am currently selling the FP18g in the classifieds. Any input on the play issue would also be great. Later

 

[dsm-onster]

You were checking a "dry turbo"? You should have put oil in it before commenting on the lateral play. Did you do that when you initially checked the td06sl2 18g?

 

[91-gsx]

You were checking a "dry turbo"? You should have put oil in it before commenting on the lateral play. Did you do that when you initially checked the td06sl2 18g?

Whats up Dsmonster. You got me man, I did not put oil through the turbo at all.. I was not aware of doing that to check it.. How should I put oil through it to check? Simply pour some oil in through the feed hole and then move it around? I did not check the new evo3 16g with oil, and I did not check the td06sl2 18g with oil through it.. I apologize again for any misinformation I might have spread at all. I ended up buying a new evo3 16g right before I found out that the td06sl2 18g is in excellent condition... I came on here right away and stated I was WRONG about the td06sl2 18g. Please clear up the oil checking procedure for me or anybody else this might interest some day. Thanks again for all the help