A Theory about E85...

[InfiniteGSX]

Ok guys, My Delima... I'm broke! . I have some 390, 450 and 660cc Injectors for sale and nobody wants the 660's, 450's are sold but haven't gotten rid of them yet. This is all for my new daily driver setup. I've been trying to find a SAFC to run the 660cc injectors but can't find one for cheap.

I've been reading alot and read that to safely run E85 from the pump in my car, I will need to Add around 20% more fuel. AKA enriching the fuel map 20% or whatever. These 660cc injectors I have are 22% larger than the 450cc stock injectors. So I know that when I install them, on pump gas I will have to lean them out 20% to safely run.

With that said..... WHAT IF, I install the 660's as stock injectors and start rpumping E85. Will It Work out? I already have a 255lph fuel pump. The 660's will add 22% more fuel, and I'll be supplying 80% less energetic fuels that require 20% more to be blown up in my nice shiny combustion chamber .

I'm also running brand new oils all the time, I clean my Filter all the time. About to change out my fuel filter. I run BPR6's right now. And I'm on 10psi on a big 16g.

Please help me out with this. Can I do this without a AFC or whatever? Will I need to change my base timing? Or anything?

 

[abaum565]

I am not familiar with the AFC so I can't help you there. But in theory that should work with only putting in the 660's. The only thing that you may run into trouble with is not having and AFPR. This could give you more or less injector depending on your trims and afr's. You won't have to adjust timing or anything.

If you have a way to log your trims and afr's you can put those in along with e85 and start slow, get the cruise and idle down and then move to some higher rpms stuff. You can fine tune everything with the AFC providing you have way to log. e85 is very forgiving!

You might want to check the equations again though. For some reason I am thinking you need more than 20% more fuel...but I don't know it's been awhile since I dealt with that.

 

[Ceddy]

Make sure you have a Wideband to monitor AFRs. Your Front O2 sensor will adjust fuel when in closed loop, but in open loop(WOT) you will have no control over fuel and 2-3% more or less fuel could be the difference between detonation or a burnt piston. Your 660s may be close with E85, but they won't be perfect. Also realize 660s with E85 are like 450s with gas, you won't be able to run much boost before running out of injector.

You need at the minimum, a WideBand and someway to control fuel like a AFPR or a SAFC. If you can't afford them, throw some 450s in and run gas or you may be needing to buy a new motor.

 

[abaum565]

I don't think 2-3% fuel will burn your piston up or blow your motor. Remeber you can go leaner with e85, I've seen guys run 12.5-13.0 afr's on e85. If you don't change boost, you should be around the stock afr's for gas which is 10.4ish, so being able to lean it out will be key, that's were the AFC will come in.

You really have to be stupid to get e85 to detonate, not that it doesn't happen, but it's a quite forgiving fuel.

 

[the_mork]

This is kind of silly IMO. There isn't ANY point in putting e85 in your car unless you can control timing and you wont be able to run more boost because you really wont have any more fuel.

Basically you'll get all of the downsides of e85 including having to fill up more, more expensive fuel (less expensive per gallon more expensive per mile), limited filling stations, etc. with none of the upsides (mainly power). In fact you'll likely lose a fair amount of power since e85 is a slower burning fuel your flame front wont be reflect your timing. Just to get the same flame propagation you need several degrees more timing let alone to ramp the timing to what e85 allows you.

What you would probably need is to go to even larger injectors such as 750s and then treat them as 650s or whatever they work out to be with an safc to ramp up your timing.

I don't think 2-3% fuel will burn your piston up or blow your motor. Remeber you can go leaner with e85, I've seen guys run 12.5-13.0 afr's on e85. If you don't change boost, you should be around the stock afr's for gas which is 10.4ish, so being able to lean it out will be key, that's were the AFC will come in.

What does not changing boost have to do with what your AFR is going to be? Just because you run more boost doesn't mean that your AFR goes leaner unless the map tells it to, that part doesn't bother me so much but what I want to know is exactly how you go about deciding that his car will be running a 10.4:1 AFR when you don't know what brand his 660s are, what their actual flow is, how well his MAF is calibrated, what condition his motor is in, or even what content gasoline content is in his e85.

I don't mean to be busting chops here but please please do not give out advice especially incredibly specific advice such as "10.4:1" when you aren't entirely sure of what the outcome will be.

 

[InfiniteGSX]

I'm not caring about adding more boost or anything like that. I'm caring about having my car running. And the reason I'm asking is because the only injectors I have are 660s or 390's! . which the 390's are about to sell. But if they don't sell, I don't have an AFC to tune the 660's on pump or anything. Which is why I was wondering about this so I can toss in the 660's, pump E85 and have my car till I have the ability to buy DSMAP instead of the SAFC. I'm not caring about doing this for more power right now. I had to sell my turbo and injectors to get this motor just for a daily driver because I have no cash. And luckilly a friend is letting me have a manifold and a 16g and I had these 660's on a shelf. I put them up for sale a couple months ago and haven't gotten shit back from them. So I sold the 450's and have the 390's for sale as well.

That is the only reason I'm asking. If I can safely run E85 in my car with those 660's so I can daily drive my car until I get the cash for DSMAP and then I can roll back over to pump gas.

***EDIT*** Actually now that I do the calculations. 660's are 210cc more than 450's. Which in turn calculates around 31.819% larger than the 450's. What do you guys think? Now that I do the calculations I see that thats more fuel than I was originally thinking. Also I will have a AFPR when I pickup the 16g from my friend. So 660cc Injectors, Big 16g, Walbro 255lph and AFPR. Can it be done "Safely" without any sort of digital tuning? Or am I going to be stuck until the 390's sell to some lonely honda owner, so I can pickup the AFC and run the 660's on pump?

 

[Project2G]

If I were you I'd be more concerned with getting AFPR

 

[the_mork]

If I were you I'd be more concerned with getting AFPR

You may have posted before his edit but he says he has one.

Yes, 660s are larger than you should just use for e85, generally when I've see a setup with no tuning they've usually run 550s.

I would suggest looking into simply purchasing some 450s, you can get them on ebay for cheap or some local has got to have some. I would offer to throw a little cash your way and swap you for my evo8 injectors but I really don't want to be without my car for the shipping time, if it were winter we could work something out.

Alternatively if you have a wideband (do not skip this!) then you can actually tune larger injectors by turning down the fuel pressure using your AFPR, the formula goes a little something like this ("new fuel pressure"/"stock fuel pressure") * "new injector size"

 

[InfiniteGSX]

Ok. It was just a theory. My friend is claiming 660's are only 14% larger than 450's but it doesn't make sense. I'm not going to do it. Just gonna wait, sell the other injectors, and tune with a SAFC for stock boost and enjoy having a daily driver until my 2.4 is done.

I'm still in the learning process of this E85 shit.

 

[Project2G]

You may have posted before his edit but he says he has one.

Oh okay. I was goin goff his mod list in his profile. It also shows he has ECMlink

 

[JayRolla]

The reason to run e85 is to make more power. On e85 those injectors will run out fast so like stated you wont beable to run more boost and lose gas mileage for no reason.

Install the SAFC and 660's running pump gas. Im guessing you have a logger and wbo2. If not a logger is at least needed for any injector compensating. This way you can watch knock. You have a 1g so you can pull base timing out if timing is a little high from running the 660's.

I ran a safc/maf-t setup on 1200cc injectors at 0* base timing when I first swapped to e85. Ran really good for the setup I had.

 

[habitatguy187]

I used to think the same thing until Thomas at link taught me a thing or two. - http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tuning-engine-management/325191-evo-3g-mas-2g.html - awesome thread about e85.

e85 actually requires about 49% more fuel according to T. Dorris, who as we all know can be extremely trusted in this area of expertise. Please correct anyone everytime you see that they say e85 only requires 20-30% more fuel, I was greatly mislead by reading that all over the place.


OP; you would be fine with the afpr, just turn your base fuel pressure up, is your car an auto or manual? And why are you running such low boost?

 

[JayRolla]

I used to think the same thing until Thomas at link taught me a thing or two. - http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tuning-engine-management/325191-evo-3g-mas-2g.html - awesome thread about e85.

e85 actually requires about 49% more fuel according to T. Dorris, who as we all know can be extremely trusted in this area of expertise. Please correct anyone everytime you see that they say e85 only requires 20-30% more fuel, I was greatly mislead by reading that all over the place.


OP; you would be fine with the afpr, just turn your base fuel pressure up, is your car an auto or manual? And why are you running such low boost?

I have to run about 40% more fuel to get stoich afr's during cruise.

 

[rstchris]

I run e85 on 660's. It works well as my afc is almost zero'd and injector scaling zero'd. If you can get 85% and not the 70% winter blend you should be close. Just keep the boost very low until you have the ability to tune for them.

 

[MY1GDSM]

You gonna need about 35% more fuel depending on the mix of the season in my experince... .(I been running it since our station opened over 2 years ago)

I supose you could get away with it by raising your BFP till your trims level out or with the Afc. But IMHO I would'nt be doing any of this, till you have a wideband and also are running Dsmap.
Or have some way to adjust you fuel and timing maps Besides an AFC

Just put your 390's in raise the BFP to 43 and sell the 650's and get something 1050cc or bigger,Till you can do it all the right way.
With E85 your gonna melt something or lift your head before you ever pick up any knock

 

[tkelly27]

DSM Forums - View Profile: Mr Peepers

His setup works great. Uses the CAS to adjust timing. Not perfect, but he's going a lot faster than a lot of people here with tiny turbos.

 

[JayRolla]

DSM Forums - View Profile: Mr Peepers

His setup works great. Uses the CAS to adjust timing. Not perfect, but he's going a lot faster than a lot of people here with tiny turbos.

Thats kind of like my old setup. But I had 1200's so I needed a maf-t since the safc only compensates +/- 50%. With the maf-t adjusted for 14.7 afr's at cruise I still had to pull 25+% on the safc to get a good 11.5 afr at WOT.

Another option is swapping to a Evo maf which runs a lot leaner and gives you more room on the safc when running large injectors.

 

[whiteboyz]

Ok. It was just a theory. My friend is claiming 660's are only 14% larger than 450's but it doesn't make sense. I'm not going to do it. Just gonna wait, sell the other injectors, and tune with a SAFC for stock boost and enjoy having a daily driver until my 2.4 is done.

I'm still in the learning process of this E85 shit.

i can help you out with some 450's. how much you looking to get for your 660's? maybe we can work something out. let me know.

 

[Project2G]

Information provided by Melbowski. Basically to run E85 you need bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump, and something to control the fuel/timing. E85 requires roughly 20%-30% more consumption than gasoline, so everything fuel related needs to be up to par.

The big advantage of E85 is that it has a high octane rating (I've heard about 105) and costs a bit less than pump gas. Basically it will allow you to run significantly higher boost than pump gas at a far better price than race gas.

It does however come with drawbacks; for one your gas mileage is going to drop significantly (remember 20%-30% more consumption versus gasoline), but with the proper setup you can switch back to regular gas any time you'd like, and then switch back to E85 when you're headed to the track. You'll also often hear that it's bad for your fuel lines and can gunk up filters since it's practically a cleaner, though I've never heard of anyone actually having those problems personally. Probably the largest problem is that it's not extremely common, and should you run low on E85 you'll be SOL if you can't find a station unless you keep your laptop/tuning software in your car.

There's a conversion thread here: http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showth...hlight=run+e85

Also it appears that E85 pumps are shutting down due to low demand, not sure about your area though: http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showth...hlight=run+e85

Just for some more fun he's a E85 pros and cons thread: http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showth...hlight=run+e85

Here's a thread with some people actually running E85: E85 is it runnable without dsmlink? - DSM Forums: Mitsubishi Eclipse, Plymouth Laser, and Eagle Talon Forum: DSMtalk.com