e85

[throwedgsx]

I was pretty impressed with it when my car tuned for 91 made 390 at the wheels. We drained it and tuned it for e85 and it made 450 at the wheels

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

Right... he went from 750's to 950's and went from a 190 to a 255 pump with a AFPR. I think we added enough to cover the 30%.

The overall midrange powerband of his car suffered so he could gain some WOT performance.

There's more to life than WOT

 

[throwedgsx]

Really? i never lost any midrange. My timing map dips a little at 4-5k but it still has plenty of power

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

Maybe it has something to do with your 2g 8.5:1 compression vs his stock 1g 7.8:1 compression.

Don't get me wrong it does suppress knock very well in which makes you able to run more boost which = more power. But, until the price goes way down to compensate for the less mileage or the availability gets better. I won't touch it. There is only 1 station here in KC that offers E85.

That is my opinion.

 

[droppinbottom]

Maybe it has something to do with your 2g 8.5:1 compression vs his stock 1g 7.8:1 compression.

Don't get me wrong it does suppress knock very well in which makes you able to run more boost which = more power. But, until the price goes way down to compensate for the less mileage or the availability gets better. I won't touch it. There is only 1 station here in KC that offers E85.

That is my opinion.

I think you and alot of people are missing the point about e85. In our case it is not for the everyday driver who can make the same power on pump gas. Also it is not a felony to convert your vehicle over to using E85. There is actually companies that make kits that are EPA approved to convert your vehicle over.

Do you know you can get into trouble for having your meth/alch injection installed in your vehicle?

I can tell you first hand between a injection system and a e85 setup, the e85 one is more reliable and I don't know about the rest of you but I want something that is reliable when I am at the track.

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

Q. IS IT POSSIBLE TO CONVERT A VEHICLE THAT WAS MADE FOR GAS TO RUN ON ETHANOL?

A. Yes, but, there are no flex fuel conversions or after-market parts that have been certified by the EPA. None of the flex fuel products have met the standards to maintain clean exhaust emissions. Technically, converting a vehicle that was made to run on gasoline only to operate on another form of fuel is a violation of federal law and the offender may be subject to penalties. Unfortunately, no after-market conversion company has been able to certify a E85 flex fuel kit that would allow a gasoline vehicle to operate on e85.



So, unless you buy the aftermarket company's overpriced kit to convert your vehicle to run on the fuel you will be in violation of a federal law. Which makes it a felony.


So is removing your cat but I did that too... So let's put it in the same category as that. It's illegal and you probably won't ever get caught.

The OP also asked about what it's like to DD on it. So I gave him my real world experience with the fuel in DD situations.

 

[droppinbottom]

Q. IS IT POSSIBLE TO CONVERT A VEHICLE THAT WAS MADE FOR GAS TO RUN ON ETHANOL?

A. Yes, but, there are no flex fuel conversions or after-market parts that have been certified by the EPA. None of the flex fuel products have met the standards to maintain clean exhaust emissions. Technically, converting a vehicle that was made to run on gasoline only to operate on another form of fuel is a violation of federal law and the offender may be subject to penalties. Unfortunately, no after-market conversion company has been able to certify a E85 flex fuel kit that would allow a gasoline vehicle to operate on e85.



So, unless you buy the aftermarket company's overpriced kit to convert your vehicle to run on the fuel you will be in violation of a federal law. Which makes it a felony.


So is removing your cat but I did that too... So let's put it in the same category as that. It's illegal and you probably won't ever get caught.

The OP also asked about what it's like to DD on it. So I gave him my real world experience with the fuel in DD situations.

Taken from National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition

This is a common question asked of the National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition. Unfortunately, there is no simple answer. In the strictest sense, yes, a vehicle that was designed to operate on unleaded gasoline only could be converted to operate on E85. Realistically, the conversion is extremely difficult. Below explains the reasoning. Be aware that Flex Fuel U.S. has obtained the only U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) approval for an E85 conversion kit. The Flex-Box Smart Kit™ is approved for the most popular Dodge vehicles: the Dodge Charger, Dodge Magnum, Chrysler 300 2wd and AWD 5.7L Hemi.

During the 1980’s and early 1990’s, many small companies were formed that were altering gasoline-powered vehicles to operate on other forms of fuels such as propane, compressed natural gas, 85 percent ethanol and 85 percent methanol. The marketing program of these conversion companies was based on the premise that it was cheaper to operate a vehicle on alternative fuels. However, the vehicles being converted were engineered, designed and built to operate on unleaded only. Shortly after the emergence of the “conversion firms” the EPA determined that when converted from gasoline to another form of fuel, the exhaust emissions from these converted vehicles were often much “dirtier” than prior to conversion. See explanation regarding EPA Memo 1A. The use of alternative fuels in the transportation sector has been built around the objectives of using cleaner, non-gasoline based components.

Based on the federal authority provided to the EPA through the Clean Air Act Amendments of 1990, the EPA implemented regulations that required the exhaust emissions from vehicles converted to run on alternative fuels be “as clean as the exhaust emissions of the original gasoline equipment.” That is, if Ford Motor Company manufactured a vehicle to meet federal emissions standards on gasoline, a company converting that vehicle to operate on propane, must be able to certify that the emissions from the converted vehicle was as good as the original. A process to certify such after-market equipment was initiated and ultimately, few if any conversion kits were able to qualify.

Today, 99.9 percent of the vehicles that are capable of operating on alternative transportation fuels are produced by the original equipment manufacturers such as Ford, General Motors, and DaimlerChrysler. Engineers from these companies are able to design and build vehicles that meet the EPA exhaust emission standards. These companies also are required to warranty the exhaust emissions from these vehicles for 10 years or 100,000 miles, something very few conversion companies are able to accomplish. However, as you will read below, that might be changing.

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

Thanks but you forgot this part... Which is what I originally posted.

IS IT POSSIBLE TO CONVERT A VEHICLE THAT WAS DESIGNED FOR GASOLINE TO OPERATE ON E85?

Yes. However, the only kit holds EPA certification is by FlexFuel U.S. You can find more information on this kit at HOME - Flex Fuel US. Technically speaking, converting a vehicle that was designed to operate on unleaded gasoline only to operate on another form of fuel that does not use the FlexFuel U.S. kit is a violation of the federal law and the offender may be subject to significant penalties.

The differences in fuel injector size, air-fuel ratio, PCM calibrations, material composition of the fuel lines, pumps and tanks are just a few of the components that contribute to making an E85 conversion extremely complex.

 

[droppinbottom]

Thanks but you forgot this part... Which is what I originally posted.

IS IT POSSIBLE TO CONVERT A VEHICLE THAT WAS DESIGNED FOR GASOLINE TO OPERATE ON E85?

Yes. However, the only kit holds EPA certification is by FlexFuel U.S. You can find more information on this kit at HOME - Flex Fuel US. Technically speaking, converting a vehicle that was designed to operate on unleaded gasoline only to operate on another form of fuel that does not use the FlexFuel U.S. kit is a violation of the federal law and the offender may be subject to significant penalties.

The differences in fuel injector size, air-fuel ratio, PCM calibrations, material composition of the fuel lines, pumps and tanks are just a few of the components that contribute to making an E85 conversion extremely complex.

Sometimes you have to admit when you are wrong. Look at what you said earlier

oh yea and it's a felony to the EPA if you convert a non FFV to the fuel (if they ever find out.)

Now look at what you posted last and it says

[Technically speaking, converting a vehicle that was designed to operate on unleaded gasoline only to operate on another form of fuel that does not use the FlexFuel U.S. kit is a violation of the federal law and the offender may be subject to significant penalties/QUOTE]

In the end a vehicle that was designed to run off of gas can legally be converted to FFV but at this time the only legal way to do this is to use the one and only kit that has the EPA approval. So if you do it right it is LEGAL.

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

I also said:

So, unless you buy the aftermarket company's overpriced kit to convert your vehicle to run on the fuel you will be in violation of a federal law. Which makes it a felony.

I'm not wrong... How many people on this board who have swapped to E85 can pass emissions and have used the correct kit?

You obviously are an advocate of the fuel. If you use it, did you use the proper EPA approved kit? Probably not... since you probably did not use the approved kit can you provide the EPA with proof that your vehicle can pass emissions? Probably not... that would make you in violation of the law. Which is a felony... You probably won't ever get caught but you are in violation... Just like I am for removing my catalytic converter...

 

[droppinbottom]

Im gonna poke fun at you because you can't admit you are wrong.

The quote you used in the last post, was only stated after I called you out on your comment. I never once said that we (those of us using e85) were legit. I simply said that it can be done and can be legit.

Take a look at your answer in post 16. That information you gave as your answer is incorrect.

You are obviously against using it and you have a right to your opinion. I am simply stating that your original post was flawed and needed to be corrected. If you can't see that then you need to mature a bit more.

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

The original point I was trying to get across was based off the assumption that most people on this board that convert their vehicles are going to do it the "DSMer way" which is the cheapest way they can... This does not involve the use of an after market company to sell them a "kit." I wanted to inform them that this could lead to felony charges if the EPA ever found out that they did not use the approved kit. The DSMer kit includes but is not limited to: Injectors, Fuel Lines & Filter, AFPR, and a Fuel Pump.

So I am "wrong" because I didn't state in my original post "unless you buy the aftermarket company's overpriced kit to convert your vehicle" which the average DSMer isn't going to use anyway?

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

Take a look at your answer in post 16. That information you gave as your answer is incorrect.

I quoted that information from a slightly more out of date site than the one you did.

e85 Ethanol Alternative Fuel - Entries tagged as conversion

Then my next post I read further down from your reply of your source and posted pretty much the same information from your source which must have been updated since then.

National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

Ok I see it, I guess to your standards my original post was wrong. Let me rephrase it:

Unless you use the EPA approved kit to convert your DSM to run on E85. You could face felony charges if they ever wanted to prosecute you. Or unless you can prove to the EPA that you abide by all of the emissions laws in your state. Converting to E85 you will still face the major challenges of a limited availability (mostly midwest), less fuel mileage, and hard starting in cold weather.

These are just some of the reasons I do not support the use of the fuel.

OP, don't mind us. Run it if you want to.

 

[stregat]

well damn i got a neo it was in the car when i got it

 

[JayRolla]

well damn i got a neo it was in the car when i got it

Try it, if it works it works. Sorry these guys had to steal your thread. ProjectGS is out of line and should not have even posted anything because it had nothing to do with what this thread was about.

ProjectGS you do know you dont make sense. You adding your meth kit is also illegal. The power you get from e85 outwieghs the difference in price. I see 14-17mpg in the city depending on how I drive and almost 20 on the highway. Not to mention that its 10 times better than meth injection and a little better than 110 octane. Also cold starts on e85 is not a problem. You may have to crank one to two extra times and thats only if its under 30*.

Swapping over is not complex at all. You need an ems, larger injectors and a good fuel pump. That is it. Why is that so complex. Most people have everything they need already, except the right size injectors. Not complex at all.

 

[droppinbottom]

OP I appologize for this thread. I just don't want people to spread misinformation about something that we are still in the learning process about.

Projectgs does bring up some viable issues that is known about using this type of fuel so don't discount everything he said. I can still learn about this fuel as well as I am still fairly new to it as well.

Back to your original question though I don't think at this time it would be to your advantage to switch your car over to e85. Best thing I can tell you is do some research and make your own decision.

 

[blazinglaser_90]

just for the record i run e85 in my talon. It gets worse milage true but the whole driveability of the car has returned with the 1600cc injectors. It idles like stock, drives like stock but runs 36 psi on a daily basis and never knocks and the motor has been together now for 10 months and 15k miles. just my .02 cents haha

 

[gsxrtalon]

Im switching my 97gst to e85 this weekend. I have a walbro 255(not rewired) and FIC 1050's with a Fuel Lab AFPR. I was thinking of going Meth/Water but after reading threads and looking at logs on the dsmlink forums i decided against meth/water injector for a couple reasons. The biggest is that e85 is your total fuel system while meth/water is just another additive to reduce temps.
Most of the guys on the link boards that run e85 say the biggest downfall to e85 is GREED. Due to how knock resistant it is you can basically get away with crazy boost levels and just as crazy timing maps that eventually detonate the motor.

I will share my impressions on e85 once I get a good tune on my gst and see how the gt35r likes it

 

[droppinbottom]

Im switching my 97gst to e85 this weekend. I have a walbro 255(not rewired) and FIC 1050's with a Fuel Lab AFPR. I was thinking of going Meth/Water but after reading threads and looking at logs on the dsmlink forums i decided against meth/water injector for a couple reasons. The biggest is that e85 is your total fuel system while meth/water is just another additive to reduce temps.
Most of the guys on the link boards that run e85 say the biggest downfall to e85 is GREED. Due to how knock resistant it is you can basically get away with crazy boost levels and just as crazy timing maps that eventually detonate the motor.

I will share my impressions on e85 once I get a good tune on my gst and see how the gt35r likes it

This is where a dyno comes into play. We found that once you reach a certain amount of timing that it just doesn't make anymore power. On my car I see according to link about 21° timing up top and anything more than that we did not make enough power for it to be worth it.

 

[gsxrtalon]

This is where a dyno comes into play. We found that once you reach a certain amount of timing that it just doesn't make anymore power. On my car I see according to link about 21° timing up top and anything more than that we did not make enough power for it to be worth it.

Yes I agree a dyno is in need. You are also correct on the timing. I have been told by numerous knowledgable dsmr's to not run more than 21-22degrees of advance. Once you find your sweet spot in you timing map I would think it would be time to take your A/F ratio and mess with that more and on e85 I believe you can go very very lean(although not suggested) I have been advised to go 11.5- 11.8 at wot.

Food for thought. Since you can get away with such lean a/f's what about spool up on e85? Would being able to achieve spool quicker be another advantage of e85?

 

[JayRolla]

Ive seen people that have burned up valves running that lean on e85, but these where real high HP dsm's. After playing with afr's they have found that they dont burn valves when running 11.1 afr's at the leanest. But thats just guys up here in the rockys that give me this info. There are lots of guys running mid 11's but for how long is the question. I run 11.3 in the mid rpms and 11.1 at the top and the car loves it. I see 22* timing from 5500rpms up and 30+psi holding at 26. I see a blip of 4 counts at most on hot days.

 

[gsxrtalon]

Ive seen people that have burned up valves running that lean on e85, but these where real high HP dsm's. After playing with afr's they have found that they dont burn valves when running 11.1 afr's at the leanest. But thats just guys up here in the rockys that give me this info. There are lots of guys running mid 11's but for how long is the question. I run 11.3 in the mid rpms and 11.1 at the top and the car loves it. I see 22* timing from 5500rpms up and 30+psi holding at 26. I see a blip of 4 counts at most on hot days.

I have a fellow tuner in Chicago that runs his 1g e16g on e85 and he stats that he runs 11.5-11.8 all day long and his car loves it. I will probably run low 11's due to the fact that I am still on stock block/head. I will only be running 25-28 psi due to my lack of fuel supply for now. We will see what happens this weekend. I have yet to have my 35r past 18psi so I am anxious to see her wake up

 

[droppinbottom]

So far I am staying around 11.8 afr in my car.

Yes e85 should help with spool time as well.

 

[spyderturbo007]

well damn i got a neo it was in the car when i got it

Make sure yours doesn't fall under the programming bug recall. Some of them have a coding error that causes erratic airflow readings and can lead to a blown motor. It should have a Karmen compatibility sticker on the back and the last 5 digits of the serial number needs to be >13800.

If not, you need to pull that thing and get it fixed before you destroy something.