420A 97 GS Clutch issues??

[04bls84]

Ok so here is the dillema. I replaced a bad clutch in my 97 GS 420a, Now I can not get it to shift without a grind unless its into reverse. I cannot get a good pedal when bleeding it at all. I replaced the master, the slave, and the clutch and TOB. Checked for leakes and there are none. Bench bled the master, gravity bled system, and pressure bled the system also. Anything I am missing? Please Help

Its acting like it still needs bled, but Ive only been bleeding it everyday for a week now. I have gone through 4 bottle of dot 3 and still cant get a hard pedal at all. It will get a little harder but as soon as you bleed it its right back to nothing after that. Like if you pump and then hold and instead of opening the bleeder valve, nd you just let the pedal out to rest your foot as soon as you start pumping again its soft just as if there is still air but the amount of fluid coming out of the bleeder with no air is alot and like I said no air comes out at all. Im lost here and need some advice. I have done everything I can think of and everything I have seen on here in other articles but still no luck.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

That's an odd problem. I'm no drivetrain expert, so this is just a shot in the dark, but maybe there's a problem with how the clutch fork was re-installed? If the hydraulics are fine, then it sounds like the slave isn't pushing against anything to me...

 

[bullettdsm]

That's an odd problem. I'm no drivetrain expert, so this is just a shot in the dark, but maybe there's a problem with how the clutch fork was re-installed? If the hydraulics are fine, then it sounds like the slave isn't pushing against anything to me...

Yup, first place I would look. Take off the little booty around the fork and see if something goofy is happening there. Be sure that the fork is still pressed onto its pivot ball and be sure that the TO bearing is still surrounded and clipped into the fork.

If you can, have someone press on the clutch pedal and see if the rod is moving out of the slave cylinder.

MB

 

[starfish]

Did you just buy the car(with bad clutch)or have you had it for a while?or did you do the clutch just because your gears were grinding?

 

[04bls84]

Ive had the car for 3 years now, and the fork is seated properly onto the pivot ball. as for the TOB the old one was just sitting on the shaft not attached to the fork at all. So I figured that its one of those free travel ones. My dad is a mechanic and he said thats what it is. Im not sure but even the Haines manual didnt have anything in it about a clip. I know the 4G63 Has a clip but the 420A im not sure about. As for it not moving it moves and is pressing against the fork. Its a very wierd situation. I can not get a hard clutch pedal at all. But if I pump the clutch and stick it in gear its ok, but if I dont it will grind. Thats telling me that there is not enough pressure being applied to the fork, what do you think

 

[VelocitàPaola]

Ive had the car for 3 years now, and the fork is seated properly onto the pivot ball. as for the TOB the old one was just sitting on the shaft not attached to the fork at all. So I figured that its one of those free travel ones. My dad is a mechanic and he said thats what it is. Im not sure but even the Haines manual didnt have anything in it about a clip. I know the 4G63 Has a clip but the 420A im not sure about. As for it not moving it moves and is pressing against the fork. Its a very wierd situation. I can not get a hard clutch pedal at all. But if I pump the clutch and stick it in gear its ok, but if I dont it will grind. Thats telling me that there is not enough pressure being applied to the fork, what do you think

So the TOB isn't currently clipped to the fork? If so, that sounds like your problem... You already confirmed the hydraulics are fine, so it must be building enough pressure.

 

[04bls84]

But the diagram in the Haines repair manual does not show that there is a clip. There was no clip on the old bearing when I removed it, and even the installation part of the manual does not say a single word about a clip. I know the fork has a clip to hold it to the ball, but the bearing does not accordingly to any of the info that I have. The 4g63 has a clip but the 420a does not.

According to everyone I have talked to locally that has done one of these clutches in the 420a has told me that the bearing just sits in front of the fork, no clip attaches it to the fork.

And to clarify, this is a 420a not a 4G63. Its the same engine that the neons have.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

There are brittle metal tabs that clip the TOB to the fork, but I'll wait for Mark to fill you in on anymore details so I don't give you misinformation...

 

[bullettdsm]

Picture time

Ok, here's what we got. Here's a pic of basically how your clutch fork and throw out bearing are connected up (with the input shft in the middle. Which it just rides on).

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the face of the throw out bearing pushes up against the clutch pressure plate etc. You see the bump where you say you have it pressed onto the ball; cool.

But if we were to look at the other side of that set up, we would see the two little plastic tabs that hold the throw out bearing to the fork. Here is a pick of the opposite side;

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Look closely and you will see the little tabs. Here is an attempted pic of one of those tabs;

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So that's what Velocita was talking about. These little plasitc tabs hold the fork to the TO bearing and also hold the fork in place.

Now IF you were to turn that TO bearing 90* so that you are not on the clip part of the bearing, you would probably have problems. The fork does not fit around the plastic and sit flat. Therefore your fork would be pushing crooked. Could that constitute your current problem? Meh, possible..

If you put the TO bearing on correctly and didn't snap it on, It would probably just snap on by itself (as you pressed the clutch), or the clips would break. Which generally makes for either a non-functioning clutch (very unlikely scenario. Lots of thing have to happen for that to occur), a noisy clutch, or no problem whatsoever.

You are talking about double clutching and it working, so that does make me feel like its a hydraulic problem. Did you check to see how far the post was coming out on the slave cylinder? When you double clutch, dioes it come out farther?

I know that some people have had problems getting ALL the air out of the system (I have yet to see the problem and I'm old man gravity feed with pumping afterward). Are you absolutely sure its not getting air back in the system somewhere?

MB

Hmm, what clutch are you putting on there?

 

[04bls84]

Ok so the guy that told me it just sits there was incorrect, i see that now. Thank you for the pics and for clarifying it all for me. As for the fork, can you remove it without pulling the trans and if so how exactly? I really appreciate all the help you all are giving me. And as for the person who I consulted originally, he will be getting an earfull from me .

 

[starfish]

Ok so the guy that told me it just sits there was incorrect, i see that now. Thank you for the pics and for clarifying it all for me. As for the fork, can you remove it without pulling the trans and if so how exactly? I really appreciate all the help you all are giving me. And as for the person who I consulted originally, he will be getting an earfull from me .

They'er def. right,it clips on sort of.But I'm pretty sure you slave cylinder is bad,I had the same problem on a older g-box I had.Always had to pump it to get the gears shiftin.I put on a new slave-C and bled it,and it was fixed.

 

[04bls84]

I put 2 new slaves on it and the same issue with both. I think that the reason for this is because when you pust the clutch in the slave is extending more than it should because the for is not attached correctly. Im going to pull the trans back tomorrow and put the bearing on the right way this time and see if that makes a difference. If so thats why, but if not I think the new master may be off or defective. Oh well ill find out tomorrow. Oh BTW Starfish I love paintjob on the VC.

 

[bullettdsm]

I put 2 new slaves on it and the same issue with both.

Keep in mind that if not bled fully and properly, a brand new slave is going to have the same issues. Just saying.

Im going to pull the trans back tomorrow and put the bearing on the right way this time and see if that makes a difference.

OH NO YOU"RE NOT!! You're gonna get that bastardd who told you the TO bearing doesn't attach, to come down and pull that tranny for you. And you're going to sit back in your folding chair and watch (with beer in hand -or Redbull, whatever your pleasure) while he get's greasy dirty

MB

 

[04bls84]

I wish he would, that would save me the headache of doing it but to get him off the xbox is an act of god. Anyway im getting ready to start tearing it out or at least back far enough to take the fork off and slip it over or around the bearing. I will let everyone know how that works for me and like I said before I really appreciate all the help.

Ok, so I pulled the trans back from the motor enough to take off the fork. The bearing is garbage, those ### little tabs are gone so I had to order another one. That sets me back another 40 bucks. Damn it!!! I should make the nerd that told me it just sits in there pay for it. Ass anyway.

 

[bullettdsm]

Heh heh, not laughing at you, hopefully laughing with you.

Here's hoping that will fix your problem

MB

 

[04bls84]

So i didnt buy the bearing, the clutch kit was under warranty so i replaced the whole thing. Gonna get out here soon and freeze my ass off in the november cold dirt to put this bastard in.

 

[04bls84]

Hello everyone, the problem with the bearing I was having is resolved but the car is doing the same thing as before just not as bad. I have replaced the slave cylinder twice and the master once, as well as the clutch, TO bearing and adjusted the master. I still can not get it to go in gear without double clutching. If I try normal it grinds just as it did before. I would really appreciate any thoughts on this.

 

[bullettdsm]

Sorry I didn't get back to this. I saw it marked resolved and figured it was done.

Alright two thoughts; are you absolutely sure that the system is totally bled? (I think you said you replaced the components of the hydraulic system)

And another thought I had (that would be really unusual for a stock set-up), is if your clutch fork is bent (obviously no real way to check this except to pull it back apart ).

You are sure that the slave cylinder is bolted all the way down with nothing blocking it?

Couple of not so happy thoughts.

MB

 

[04bls84]

Yes I checked the system for leaks and for air, I pressure bled it for about a half an hour and no air at all. Went through a whole bottle of dot 3. The fork didnt seem bent it looks like the one in the picture, I am leaning towards the master not being adjusted correctly. It goes in gear if you double clutch but if you dont it just grinds. Another thing I noticed is when you give it a little gas and try to put it in gear it just grinds unless you double clutch it also. Sometimes it will go in fine unless you give it a little gas also. I think that the master is not adjusted correctly, I mean no air for a half an hour of pressure bleeding and the slave is working.

 

[bullettdsm]

I am leaning towards the master not being adjusted correctly.

Well, I'll be. FINALLY had a problem with a vehicle that had an adjustment situation. Re-bled a couple of times, and checked every component to see if they functioned properly (which they did). So now I'm forced to look at the whole system (and I think this is where you have your problem). I knew something wasn't pushing something enough (, pretty good thinking, eh ).

So in looking and checking around, I saw a nylon nut on the push rod of the master cylinder (which with this car was new). So I screwed that in a counterclockwise direction and it extended the rod. Voila', it fixed the problem of low clutch grab.

I had read over and over that there was no adjustment in our clutch system (being hydraulic and all). Since I never had a situation that made me look into it, I never knew.

I suspect that as you posted, that may be the problem

MB

 

[04bls84]

Hello, sorry I havent been on for a while. But the adjustment did not do anythig for it. Still cannot figure this thing out. I have tried everything.

 

[blindboarder_02]

Shifts that way through all of the gears? Or only when starting out?

Could be an internal transmission issue.

 

[bullettdsm]

Hello, sorry I havent been on for a while. But the adjustment did not do anythig for it. Still cannot figure this thing out. I have tried everything.

Didn't huh? Crap. It definitely fixed my problem. Cars got another 600 miles on it and clutch system is working fine.

Ok, let's get down to simplton terms. First let's discount any adjustment in the external system.

Go to the slave cylinder and back it off a little. Then you need to stick something on the end of the pushrod that will stay there but extend the rod a little (with me on this? You are basically making the slave cylinder pushrod longer. I made an actual cap type piece that I use for extending the pushrod, when I need). Then tighten the slave cylinder back down and see if that temporarilly fixes the problem.

MB

 

[04bls84]

Ok I understand the simpleton terms, another friend told me to do this. I dont think that there is any problem with the trans because it was fine until the clutch went. I will try to put something on there and see what happens. If this fixes it is there any way to order a longer shaft for the slave?

 

[turbomoe]

## fork and ball pivot can be wore out, esp if u went with a aftermaket clutch...