700hp Compound Turbo Redline build. Not DSM, but WOW...

[H@xtGSX]

I was looking at some stuff at EvolutionM and came across this... It's a real work of art you have to take a look at for yourself. DSM builds are what inspired this car.

700hp Compound Turbo Set-up (gt2871r & gt4094r turbos) - evolutionm.net

 

[spoolin ddub]

I was looking at some stuff at EvolutionM and came across this... It's a real work of art you have to take a look at for yourself. DSM builds are what inspired this car.

700hp Compound Turbo Set-up (gt2871r & gt4094r turbos) - evolutionm.net

Impressive fabrication wise but to those who know about that motor it's a waste . My boy has a 700hp daily LNF motor cobalt built by ZZP. I just had this exact discussion last Wednesday in Michigan with ZZP trying to get then to come to the Chicago 1/2 mile race . they said to twin charge with a SC or turbo is a waste on that motor. You can make the same power with just a turbo. That motor can take a .58 a/r BW S256 and easily make 650whp on a mustang dyno!

 

[H@xtGSX]

Maybe, but its very, very doubtful you could make 700hp and still have the powerband that compound turbo setup has. The reason that would be even better is while a big single car would be lugging along, waiting for the turbo to spool up, the compound turbo spooled 1500 rpm earlier and is pulling away long before the big single has a chance to get into it's powerband...

The compound setups just have a much broader torque curve and will pull harder for a larger portion of the available RPM. If they short shift, it'll still pull. Drop a shift and lose the RPMs, it'll still pull once you are on it again... They are a lot more responsive in general.

If it were purely a dyno-queen, I would agree with you. If I had to drive it everyday, I'd take the compound over a big single without hesitation.

...besides, that is just a beautiful car.

 

[WES_393]

I agree, Satrun and Fast rarely go together (waiting for "my buddy had a Vue Redline that made XXX horsepower" comments).

Not sure if I agree with single turbo over compound though. The whole point of compound turbocharging is to have both low and high end power. Having a DD that doesn't spool till 6k has got to be annoying.

 

[boost97gst]

Compound setups have always seemed like a work of art to me, not so much function. I know, i know, the powerband is greatly increased, but at what cost?
I suppose if 1: you have an incredible amount of money or 2: you have a TON of skill AND access to the tools youll need, then its a semi-practical thing.
But for the 99.9% of us we can make those same numbers on one turbo, albeit alot laggier, but still you get my point. I dont understand this build but it IS cool.

And I for one, would absoltely HATE to work on a compound setup! HAHA Itd be like wrenching on a TT supra or 3kgt. I can only imagine how difficult those are to work on. To get to anything you have to rip it apart

 

[spoolin ddub]

Maybe, but its very, very doubtful you could make 700hp and still have the powerband that compound turbo setup has. The reason that would be even better is while a big single car would be lugging along, waiting for the turbo to spool up, the compound turbo spooled 1500 rpm earlier and is pulling away long before the big single has a chance to get into it's powerband...

The compound setups just have a much broader torque curve and will pull harder for a larger portion of the available RPM. If they short shift, it'll still pull. Drop a shift and lose the RPMs, it'll still pull once you are on it again... They are a lot more responsive in general.

If it were purely a dyno-queen, I would agree with you. If I had to drive it everyday, I'd take the compound over a big single without hesitation.

...besides, that is just a beautiful car.

35psi around 5k! And has full tq just before 5200rpm! Remember this is on a mustang dyno (like 14% lower then a dynojet). I'm just stating what ZZP told me and they have tried every setup out there. They have the fastest LNP motor cars and they've already been doing twin charge systems for years.

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[H@xtGSX]

Having a DD that doesn't spool till 6k has got to be annoying.

Exactly! That car has a T-too small's slightly bigger brother as a starting point. It's torque curve should start going straight up around 3000 rpm and would climb to the peak of the 4096 and remain flat all the way out! That has to feel like you're driving a freaking missile...

Now we need Paul to come in a show his dyno sheet as a comparison. It looks much different... It goes up MUCH quicker and stays at that peak for the whole pull... His was the first I had seen, and his dyno graph is what made my jaw drop.

And I for one, would absoltely HATE to work on a compound setup! HAHA Itd be like wrenching on a TT supra or 3kgt. I can only imagine how difficult those are to work on. To get to anything you have to rip it apart

Agreed, but it surely has to be satisfying to work on.

 

[WES_393]

35psi around 5k! And has full tq just before 5200rpm!

Most engines do make peak torque before 5250.

But I get what you guys are saying about single turbo's. Yes, you can make the same if not more horsepower on a single turbine setup. Usually much much cheaper too. But the upside to compound charging is the lower RPM boost, which also helps spool the larger turbo. If we're talking light to light on the street, a single 40R would be destroyed by a 30R fed by a 16g. You have two smaller turbo's that will spool faster and produce similar horsepower. It's not all tubular artwork and display of fabrication abilities. If there were truly no gain from a compound setup, do you think so many would do it?

And I for one, would absoltely HATE to work on a compound setup! HAHA Itd be like wrenching on a TT supra or 3kgt. I can only imagine how difficult those are to work on. To get to anything you have to rip it apart

Supra TT's aren't too bad. Everything is on one side at least. However, I will never work on a 3KGT ever again. Want to pull the rear turbo? Get ready to pull the entire engine!

 

[spoolin ddub]

Most engines do make peak torque before 5250.

but not on a 2.0L when it's near/at 600+ft/lbs . I mean by boy GT500 make 680ft/lbs at 2.9k but thats a on SC V8. I'm not saing it's not impressive but to make that much tq any sooner is not useable power. I mean this car makes near 400ft/lbs at 4200rpm spinning all day! And make that sooner is going to help ? That's crazy!

 

[WES_393]

but not on a 2.0L when it's near/at 600+ft/lbs . I mean by boy GT500 make 680ft/lbs at 2.9k but thats a on SC V8.

Very true. Just yanking your chain.

But my overall point is that even on paper, a CT setup is going to have much smoother hp/tq lines. Even if it has the same peak hp/tq as a single turbo setup, your going to get more throughout the range. Rather than a whole bunch of nothing until X rpm, and then hp/tq shooting off the graph. It would make for a much nicer DD or street car.

 

[spoolin ddub]

Very true. Just yanking your chain.

But my overall point is that even on paper, a CT setup is going to have much smoother hp/tq lines. Even if it has the same peak hp/tq as a single turbo setup, your going to get more throughout the range. Rather than a whole bunch of nothing until X rpm, and then hp/tq shooting off the graph. It would make for a much nicer DD or street car.

With ZZP they said the opposite. With all the fab work and extra stuff needed to do any Twin setup the gains are not worth it for a DD/street car "On this motor". But for all out racing still depending on what it's used for the very tiny gains may be beneficial because it would squeeze out every single ounce of performance. But even then they told me it may not be necessary.

 

[H@xtGSX]

Not to say a shop like that doesn't know their stuff, but uh, if they said a compound set up like that wouldn't come up significantly faster, they're wrong or you interpreted what they said wrong. A CT system comes up as quick as the smaller turbo does, so if it were a TD06-25g feeding a 14b, the system's torque curve will spike with the speed of the 14b and pull even harder than a 25g could once both are up due to the 14b increasing the charge density of what the 25g feeds it. It'd start yanking at 2900 and wouldn't quit.

The amount of fabrication needed though is immense. If you can't do it yourself, it would cost a rediculous amount of money to set up. That would make it practical only to those with the tools and skills to do so... That's how Paul put his together. He did the work.

 

[donniekak]

Most engines do make peak torque before 5250.

But I get what you guys are saying about single turbo's. Yes, you can make the same if not more horsepower on a single turbine setup. Usually much much cheaper too. But the upside to compound charging is the lower RPM boost, which also helps spool the larger turbo. If we're talking light to light on the street, a single 40R would be destroyed by a 30R fed by a 16g. You have two smaller turbo's that will spool faster and produce similar horsepower. It's not all tubular artwork and display of fabrication abilities. If there were truly no gain from a compound setup, do you think so many would do it?




Supra TT's aren't too bad. Everything is on one side at least. However, I will never work on a 3KGT ever again. Want to pull the rear turbo? Get ready to pull the entire engine!

I can swap rear turbos on a 3s in about 2 hours. The engine does not need to come out. I know of many non turbo fwd, and rwd cars that are much harder to work on. Mitsubishi cars in general are easy to work on.

 

[spoolin ddub]

Not to say a shop like that doesn't know their stuff, but uh, if they said a compound set up like that wouldn't come up significantly faster, they're wrong or you interpreted what they said wrong. A CT system comes up as quick as the smaller turbo does, so if it were a TD06-25g feeding a 14b, the system's torque curve will spike with the speed of the 14b and pull even harder than a 25g could once both are up due to the 14b increasing the charge density of what the 25g feeds it. It'd start yanking at 2900 and wouldn't quit.

The amount of fabrication needed though is immense. If you can't do it yourself, it would cost a ridiculous amount of money to set up. That would make it practical only to those with the tools and skills to do so... That's how Paul put his together. He did the work.

They never said it wouldn't spool faster. But with a Gt28r disco potato feeding a 1.0 a/r 4094R that does not mean it will either. What they said is the advantages aren't worth it and they aren't. At 400ft/lbs by 4k it's barely useable. So Lets say it did come on faster. What good does it do for a car that weight to make 400ft/lbs or more .....at 2-3k in rwd? That car is doing nothing but spinning. Everyone throws numbers around. Higher numbers is not everything. It's all about having the correct power-band. What matters most is useable Hp.

 

[WES_393]

I say steady power from 3k to 9k would be much more useable than massive power from 5k to 9k. Prime example is a friend's Celica GT-Four. It has a PTE 6262 that (thanks to poor manifold setup) doesn't spool till the 5K range, but makes 500whp. My tiny 16g spools at 3k, but makes less than 350hp. Yet on the streets, when were literally light to light and cutting through side streets, he physically can't keep up. On the highway or the drag strip, there's no doubt I have no chance. He has the advantage of nearly 200hp with similar weight and an AWD drivetrain. But for the street, his power band is nearly useless.

If you could couple his top end power, with my low end torque, you would have a monster of a street machine. The only way to do that today is twin charging or compound charging. You won't get a 3k-9k power band with a single turbo.

 

[spoolin ddub]

I say steady power from 3k to 9k would be much more useable than massive power from 5k to 9k. Prime example is a friend's Celica GT-Four. It has a PTE 6262 that (thanks to poor manifold setup) doesn't spool till the 5K range, but makes 500whp. My tiny 16g spools at 3k, but makes less than 350hp. Yet on the streets, when were literally light to light and cutting through side streets, he physically can't keep up. On the highway or the drag strip, there's no doubt I have no chance. He has the advantage of nearly 200hp with similar weight and an AWD drivetrain. But for the street, his power band is nearly useless.

If you could couple his top end power, with my low end torque, you would have a monster of a street machine. The only way to do that today is twin charging or compound charging. You won't get a 3k-9k power band with a single turbo.

You can not compare our motor to this motor. They are totally different. Did you look at that cobalts dyno. dyno shows 7100 but his redline is 8k. It starts to spools at 3k gets 35psi right before 5K and all he does is spin in lower gears. Now If his powerband is move even slightly to the left say 400ft/lbs at 3k and 600 by 4K. That is not useable for a rwd or fwd car with that much power being that light. They just spin. Now our cars being awd we'd hook better but our motor can not make power or tq like a 2.0 LNP.

 

[H@xtGSX]

I agree with you that it'd just spin in a set up like that IF you never learned to pick your foot up. I don't keep my pedal on the floor at the strip... I can't. I know the limitations and capabilities of my car, and with a car like that and some practice with the clutch, it should be able to hook quick and f**kin LAUNCH.

The direct injection is a hindering factor IMO... The injectors are too small, and what are you going to replace them with? Additionally, unless you sleeve the shit out of those motors, they won't hold numbers like a 4g63 without serious longevity problems. They are good, but you are still talking about a cored out block with bore sleeves vs a solid piece of steel with holes bored in it.

 

[spoolin ddub]

I agree with you that it'd just spin in a set up like that IF you never learned to pick your foot up. I don't keep my pedal on the floor at the strip... I can't. I know the limitations and capabilities of my car, and with a car like that and some practice with the clutch, it should be able to hook quick and f**kin LAUNCH.

The direct injection is a hindering factor IMO... The injectors are too small, and what are you going to replace them with? Additionally, unless you sleeve the shit out of those motors, they won't hold numbers like a 4g63 without serious longevity problems. They are good, but you are still talking about a cored out block with bore sleeves vs a solid piece of steel with holes bored in it.

You prove my point . If you have to pedal that means you aren't putting down as much power right? Well what is it called when you have low end torque and power that you can't use? Useless power!! As I stated 600ft/lbs just before 5200 is extreme. Making that much tq at like 4k etc is crazy. To much power in the wrong places is equal or worse then having no power. So to each it's own.

Most just don't not know of anyone who fully understands the LNF motor. I just know a tad bit. But you're going to learn today!! As for the direct injection it is not a hindering. We just don't undertsand it. For street cars ZZP puts a fifth injector in the intake manifold. On my boys car with no extra drilling it goes right in an existing hole and is wired for contorl to the ecu etc. The setup is pretty sweet. And as far as big whp power they have injectors just like us. They have a s366 898whp cobalt (on a mustang dyno) that runs 2000cc's. Oh and that 898whp is through an auto. So try to figure out those whp numbers . Don't look down on this motor. It's pretty interesting. Its makes tq like a V6 but revs out like a 4cl.

 

[H@xtGSX]

You prove my point . If you have to pedal that means you aren't putting down as much power right? Well what is it called when you have low end torque and power that you can't use? Useless power!! As I stated 600ft/lbs just before 5200 is extreme. Making that much tq at like 4k etc is crazy. To much power in the wrong places is equal or worse then having no power. So to each it's own.

Most just don't not know of anyone who fully understands the LNF motor. I just know a tad bit. But you're going to learn today!! As for the direct injection it is not a hindering. We just don't undertsand it. For street cars ZZP puts a fifth injector in the intake manifold. On my boys car with no extra drilling it goes right in an existing hole and is wired for contorl to the ecu etc. The setup is pretty sweet. And as far as big whp power they have injectors just like us. They have a s366 898whp cobalt (on a mustang dyno) that runs 2000cc's. Oh and that 898whp is through an auto. So try to figure out those whp numbers . Don't look down on this motor. It's pretty interesting. Its makes tq like a V6 but revs out like a 4cl.

Yea, everyone has their preferences for how they want the power to come on.

I also am not looking down at this motor. I am actually pretty interested, but like you said, I don't know much about it. I did a little reading and looking around last night, just out of curiosity. The injectors they use must be fairly application specific. I didn't see much, and what I did see was $$$$$. I can see why the guy opted for port injection on that Redline. I am most interested in seeing how that motor handles 50+ psi from those turbos.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

I have worked on a couple LSJ and LNF motors.

They really have it easy.

Manufacturer support up to 1400HP, and a "build book" to boot:
http://www.sixthsphere.com/storage2/images/hoflqbc01oxs2cru3p4y.pdf

http://www.gmperformancedivision.com/content/pulse/58/ECOTEC_2.0L_LSJ_Chap5&6.pdf

Getting harder to find the book on-line that itemizes every part # they spec for the 1400hp build though

 

[boost97gst]

Really good find, landspeed.

 

[spoolin ddub]

Yea, everyone has their preferences for how they want the power to come on.

I also am not looking down at this motor. I am actually pretty interested, but like you said, I don't know much about it. I did a little reading and looking around last night, just out of curiosity. The injectors they use must be fairly application specific. I didn't see much, and what I did see was $$$$$. I can see why the guy opted for port injection on that Redline. I am most interested in seeing how that motor handles 50+ psi from those turbos.

here is my boy Ryan vs a GTR R35. Oh and this cobalt has one of the few 6 speed swap in the nation . And he lost by less then 3/4 a car . But guess why he lost? He lost because in 2nd and part of 3rd he spinned and fell back. I mean he did start to pull and catch up but a loss is a loss.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piE1R8u0pvU]Snobalt (605whp "Cobalt SS from Hell") vs Alpha 6/7 GTR - YouTube[/ame]


here is 54+psi S366 cobalt SC converted to turbo LSJ motor on mustang dyno...thru an auto

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Losk-lJ_s7I]Ryan's ZZP LSJ Cobalt Dynos 891 WHP - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Sxt0Xow-As]Hard at work! - YouTube[/ame]


Both of these cars will be entering the Chicago Half-Mile Shootout June 1st-2nd as will I .

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Still looking for someone to contact to get registered for the SO, any updates?

 

[n0de]

Most engines do make peak torque before 5250.

But I get what you guys are saying about single turbo's. Yes, you can make the same if not more horsepower on a single turbine setup. Usually much much cheaper too. But the upside to compound charging is the lower RPM boost, which also helps spool the larger turbo. If we're talking light to light on the street, a single 40R would be destroyed by a 30R fed by a 16g. You have two smaller turbo's that will spool faster and produce similar horsepower. It's not all tubular artwork and display of fabrication abilities. If there were truly no gain from a compound setup, do you think so many would do it?




Supra TT's aren't too bad. Everything is on one side at least. However, I will never work on a 3KGT ever again. Want to pull the rear turbo? Get ready to pull the entire engine!

Come on Wes, its not that bad. I've pulled the rear turbo a countless amount of times. All you need to do is take the upper intake manifold off (which is actually more simple then a dsm manifold). After that, you just need a little finesse. A little pillow talk with the rear head wont hurt either.

Actually a simple trick is to remove the rear valve cover for that extra bit of clearance.

 

[spoolin ddub]

Still looking for someone to contact to get registered for the SO, any updates?

I don't want to mees up H@xtGSX thread. I posted the small amount of new info I got on the Chicago SO thread.