420a Skipped time while installing harmonic balancer

[91-talon-tsi]

Ok, so I replaced my timing belt, and water pump and converted from the hydraulic tensioner to the mechanical tensioner. I went to put everything back together and the harmonic balancer (AKA crankshaft pulley) bolt would not seat fully, but the crank tried turning while I was tightening the bolt.

A friend suggested using vise grips to clamp the cam gears together to keep the engine from turning. This worked until the crank bolt started getting hard to turn, then I hear a "click" and I look up and lo and behold the timing marks on the cam gears are off by 3 teeth on the intake cam !

What are the odds that any valves were bent ? What should I do now ? I start a new job in a week and need reliable transportation !

Anyone have any insight to this ? I trust that you guys know the answer to this better than anyone else ! I had an offer from someone to buy my eclipse for $1000 and I'm considering selling it because I'm tired of messing with it. It's such a pain to take that side motor mount and everything out just to get to the timing belt.

Not to mention having to rent a special puller to pull the harmonic balancer only to take it back and rent a harmonic balancer installer kit (which by the way doesn't fit the 420a harmonic balancer) This car is a pain to work on ! I ended up pounding the harmonic balancer back on with a block of wood and a hammer.

 

[DSM1G90]

First off, take it easy.

First things first: Take the belt off, pull the valve cover to see if all valves are at rest with the INT sprocket back at it's mark. Three teeth off shouldn't be pushing valves down that soon..

But, very bad idea in using vise grips on the belt..and where the sprocket "ripped" through the belt teeth.

..plan on buying a new belt since the grips have weakened that part of the belt by pinching the crap out of it before you continue.

You need to secure the flywheel end of the motor so the crank won't turn when you press back on the HB.

If you can sell it for a grand though, that's a grand ahead than what you are now.

Good luck-DSM

 

[91-talon-tsi]

Sorry if I sounded offensive or anything. It's just stressful being so close to starting a new job and not having a running car. The whole point in doing all of that work was preventative maintenance.

The bearings in the water pump were making noise and I wanted to make sure that this thing would be reliable, but I ended up making it not run at all. When I put the vise grips on they never touched the timing belt. I clamped them onto the cam gears in the middle of cam gears at the closest point where they meet.

I did rotate the crank one full revolution Before I realized that the the intake cam jumped 3 teeth and everything turned smoothly, but I heard a very faint and very slight "rattling" or tapping noise on the top end. Which is what brought it to my attention that it had jumped time.

Would I be able to see if there's any valve damage by removing the valve cover ?

 

[6bolt4g63]

Id reinstall the belt( if its not damaged by the V grips) set all Timing marks, turn it over by hand for no restrictions, then put the Tbelt cover back on, H balancer back on, start it n let it run for acouple seconds to see how it feels.. just 10 seconds or so.

-Or like previously mentioned, pull the VC and inspect the valves.

 

[DSM1G90]

start it n let it run for acouple seconds to see how it feels.. just 10 seconds or so.

I wouldn't even do this ... take the plugs out so there is no compression and it makes turning the pulley tons easier, then with the pulley back on, put a socket wrench on the end and roll the motor around a good dozen times, then recheck belt timing to be sure it's all okey.

Oh, if you clamped the cam sprockets together then, the belt should be okey-just aggravated the teeth on the belt with it 'ripping' through the teeth. Just do an inspection where it did rattle the sprocket teeth for torn fabric at the base of the teeth.

then, put plugs back in and fire it up, I trust that you'll be back on the road in no time.

Good luck-DSM

 

[Silver99OZ]

When reinstalling the crank pully you need a bolt that is 1 inch longer than the stock crank pully bolt to help get it started. You will also need a few washers to go with it. You use the 1 inch longer bolt to get the pully on far enough so that you can remove the bolt and put the stock bolt in and then tighten it down the rest of the way.

 

[91-talon-tsi]

I appreciate the help, info, tips and pointers guys ! How can you tell if the valves are damaged by removing the valve cover ? Wouldn't it just be the bottom of the valve that was damaged if anything ?

How can I keep the engine from turning when installing the crank pulley bolt ? I tried removing the starter and jamming the flywheel, but there's really no way to keep the fly wheel jammed up.

Also, the crank pulley bolt now seems very hard to remove now for some reason and I'm afraid that it's going to break if I try removing it. It's sticking out about half in inch from the crank pulley, but it's very hard to turn.

 

[91-talon-tsi]

Here's a pic of the cam timing while Cyl. 1 is at TDC. The timing marks are circled in red. The yellow line shows where the timing marks are supposed to be.

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[bryanwheat]

Manual or auto?

 

[Josh97eclipse]

Also make sure the timing marks are flush with the top of the head surface where the vc gasket would go. And I set my cam gear marks perfect then zip tied them together and they stayed in place.

 

[DSM1G90]

Do you know what a chain wrench is? Best friend in the automotive world tool box to have around.

If so, wrap the chain wrench around the pulley after the key on the crank has locked the pulley down from turning on the shaft.

Hang onto the chain wrench, or a buddy holds it for you while you go down on that center pulley bolt.

 

[91-talon-tsi]

It's a manual Bryanwheat. Good idea on the zip ties Josh97eclipse ! I'll have to try that sometime. I remember using heavy duty clamps to clamp the timing belt to the top of the cam gears to hold them in place when I had my talon with the 4g63.

I have heard of a chain wrench DSM1G90, although I haven't used one for anything yet. I have however used a strap wrench. Isn't there a possibility to damage the teeth and or guides on the gears/pulleys if you use a chain wrench ?

I wish I just had all the special tools, I.E. cam holer, crank holder, crank puller, crank installer, etc... It would make things so much easier ! I got the crank pulley bolt back out by jamming the flywheel with a pry bar up against one of the bolts on the flywheel.

It was hard getting it out because it turns out that the crank pulley bolt was stripped at the end. I'm just hoping that the crank is not damaged. I'm going to have to find a new crank pulley bolt now.

Cylinder #1 is the cylinder closest to the timing side of the engine right ? Is looked at the firing orders for the 420a on google and some pics show it 1234 from left to right and some show 4321.

 

[DSM1G90]

Strap wrench is good if it's thick leather based, not neopene rubber based since the leather won't stretch, but an industrial strap wrench that is a virtle fabric is also good since it also doesn't stretch...

but I've used the chain on a grooved pulley with no problems..

Usually, No. 1 firing order begins at the front of the motor .. and front on a sideways motor setup, the one closest to the crank pulley...and should be 1-3-4-2 since the inner pistons goes down together and that makes the outer pistons go down together.

 

[91-talon-tsi]

1-3-4-2 Sounds more accuarate and only makes sense, but the pics on the web are somewhat misleading. Except for the first one. These are what come up in a search for 420a firing order. Check em out :

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[DSM1G90]

..the middle one is for the 4G63 motor - coil pack is under the int manifold .. See how No.1 is on the right side .... your's sits on the left side.

Good luck-DSM

 

[bryanwheat]

If the car is a manual than put it in 5th gear and have someone hold the brakes.
That will make it so the engine doesn't turn over and allow you to torque the bolt.

 

[91-talon-tsi]

Finally !!! After about 20 tries I got the timing belt back on right ! I'm not too sure about the stupid mechanical tensioner. You have to loosen the bolts that mount the tensioner assembly to the block, loosen the idler pulley and the belt just barely slips over the tensioner.

Not sure if the hydraulic setup is this stubborn, but I will NEVER ! Do another timing belt on a 420a again ! I don't even recall the 4g63 being this stubborn

I still have yet to start her up, but this time I got everything right. I had to tap the crankshaft threads and use a new bolt for the pulley, but it's all good to go now !

Tomorrow I'll put the alternator belt and a/c belt on and see what the end results are.

 

[DSM1G90]

Dang, good luck then - hope it all works out ..(then, sell it while you're ahead..) - DSM

 

[91-talon-tsi]

Well, maybe not literally 20 tries, but It took several attempts to get the timing belt on correctly. I put the alternator belt and a/c belt on, double checked everything and fired her up and she runs great ! I'm so glad that the valves didn't get damaged !

I'm considering selling her and getting a 96+ camaro or a 1g eclipse with the 1.8 sohc 4g37. Something that has a NON interference engine and is easier to work on.

Thanks everyone for your help, tips, suggestions and information !