.4-.7* knock ___ 2.3L Harmonics?

[NewTurboTuner]

Seasoned & Professional Tuners.....


I occasionally see knock show up in my ECM logs which range from .4 to .7 degrees. It doesnt always happen, but when it does it usually comes on around the peak powerband area. Even when Im running a more conservative tune (which is in the 26psi range for me) it can happen. I have my Check engine set to come on at just 1* knock and It almost never comes on.

***Im wondering what are the likely chances of this knock being related to the harmonics of the 2.3L engine? (fyi 6-bolt 2L block)

In the past I've run AEM EMS and can calibrate the knock sensor.

***With ECMLink im stuck with the stock knock sensor calibration correct?

I've heard that when you start to see 2-3 degrees of knock count then thats when you really need to dial back the tune (cause its for sure real knock) ...I can't remember where I read that.

Thats a given for me anyways, cause I target my tunes to run ZERO knock (thats just how I like to do it). The .4-.7 knock count isnt too worrisome to me, but it is annoying. Its reducing what little timing advance I have in my tune (1-2* loss in timing advance looses a good bit of power when boosting 30+psi).

Again keep it mind it doesnt happen all the time ...maybe 20-25% of the time.
IF the .4-.7 count of knock is possibly harmonics then I guess I can live with it ...but I'd really rather it not be there if I can do something to correct it.




Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated
...Thanks!

 

[snowborder714]

You can drop timing in the DA table (or sliders if you're still in v2.5) in the areas you're seeing it to get rid of it if it bothers you that much.

I usually don't worry about anything that little as it's usually not repeatable every run, as you've found out. But I agree that tuning for no knock is the best way to go.

 

[NewTurboTuner]

Im on V3

I don't use the sliders, just the direct access high octane timing map.

Are the sliders used for something different, or just a more basic/simple way of tuning the timing?

 

[snowborder714]

They're the older way - more basic/simple/not as accurate way.

 

[c2ypt1c]

Yeah sliders are really used for quick adjustments. Fuel sliders take effect in open loop (wot) and timing sliders will modify your entire map.

In regard to your slight knock up top, snowborder pretty much summed it up. However, you could also try to richen your afr up top, unless you're already running on the rich side...

 

[gofer]

I ignore any knock registering 0.4 - 0.7 and take it as drivetrain/engine vibration (noise) because it's not repeatable, especially if you're street tuning. Typically real knock starts, say at 4k (when you hit full boost), and doesn't stop until you let off the gas or the engine blows up.

Post a log and lets see what you're talking about...

 

[NewTurboTuner]

OK Thx guys.

Figure the sliders were of the older ways of tuning, but since you mentioned it I asked.

Im already pretty rich.
I like to target 11.1afr on strait 93oct pump gas.
And on water/meth injection Im around 10.5afr with 93oct pump gas.
Reason for being this rich on water/meth Inj is that for any reason it was to fail... that would put me back in the 11.1afr as a fail safe of some sorts. I figure its better to run a true 11.1afr, and have the alky inj make me too rich, than it would to lean out my true AFR so that the alky Inj would target 11.1 (don't want to be any leaner than 11.1 on pump gas)

Yeah its street tuned

I had a feeling the knock was probably of the phantom type (or something else) and not actual.
The knock I speak of typically only last 500 to 1000RPM or so (just a blip, & it goes away real quick)
I thought it would be good to ask around anyways... see what other people thought about it.

Ill get a log posted tomorrow for reference (wanted to include a log in my 1st post, but then realized my tuning laptop isnt here with me)

I feel better now though so thanks! haha

 

[snowborder714]

Im already pretty rich.
I like to target 11.1afr on strait 93oct pump gas.
And on water/meth injection Im around 10.5afr with 93oct pump gas.
Reason for being this rich on water/meth Inj is that for any reason it was to fail... that would put me back in the 11.1afr as a fail safe of some sorts. I figure its better to run a true 11.1afr, and have the alky inj make me too rich, than it would to lean out my true AFR so that the alky Inj would target 11.1 (don't want to be any leaner than 11.1 on pump gas)

How are you controlling the meth - link? This is backwards and I'm unsure why you'd want to use meth injection if you're just targeting a richer AFR what that defeats the purpose. If using link, look up how to run dual maps for AFR and get that map for meth leaned out!

 

[NewTurboTuner]

As of now Link has nothing to do with the Water/Meth kit.
I've got a basic Boost activation switch on it at the moment.

Only had the Water/Meth kit installed a couple weekends now. Doing little by little each weekend.

I would LOVE to use the dual high/low octane Maps. Best way to go but im just not there yet.



EDIT
Oh Im not just running richer, Im running 3-5psi more with 2-3* more timing advice ...MAJOR difference in power!
Sorry, thought it was a given it'd be running more boost and timing with Meth ...I forget about the varying levels the noob-ed-ness that occupy this forum

 

[gofer]

I was helping a friend setup his meth setup and Link actually offers GREAT fail safe tuning options. Typically you'll run a lot more boost injecting meth/h2o than you would 91/93 octane so just running a richer AFR isn't going to do much if you run out of meth or blow a line, etc. if you're running more boost too. ECMLink allows you to run two boost maps too so if "X" fails, whether it's nitrous or meth, and your running 30psi it will default to a lower boost map, say 20psi, so you don't blow your engine up.

I highly recommend digging deep into ECMLink's Wiki and read, read, read so you can get the most out of your setup and money while being safe so it lasts more than one pass at the track. I've got the luxury of tuning my DSM on E85 so I haven't had to venture off into setting up a meth tune, yet.

 

[NewTurboTuner]

I was helping a friend setup his meth setup and Link actually offers GREAT fail safe tuning options. Typically you'll run a lot more boost injecting meth/h2o than you would 91/93 octane so just running a richer AFR isn't going to do much if you run out of meth or blow a line, etc. if you're running more boost too. ECMLink allows you to run two boost maps too so if "X" fails, whether it's nitrous or meth, and your running 30psi it will default to a lower boost map, say 20psi, so you don't blow your engine up.

I highly recommend digging deep into ECMLink's Wiki and read, read, read so you can get the most out of your setup and money while being safe so it lasts more than one pass at the track. I've got the luxury of tuning my DSM on E85 so I haven't had to venture off into setting up a meth tune, yet.

I fully agree. ECMLink is the right way to do it. I'll have to get on it.

 

[Lofty]

I get phantom knock all the time too. If you aren't WOT it doesn't matter.

However I can feel it messing my timing up during cruising.


I believe you can throw a washer on it to try and isolate some of the phantom knock, but try it at your own risk. (Pretty sure you know what can happen with no knock sensor)

 

[NewTurboTuner]

Mine is very occasionally showing up in WOT conditions only. Never in cruise or part throttle conditions

 

[Kalub]

I get the same thing in my 2.3l 6bolt around 4300-5200+ RPM at WOT (15-26psi only). I've pulled up to 4deg of timing in the DA tables at the knock remains. It's never in the same place, and it's always random in length. Anywhere from a split second to a full second.

I attribute it to harmonics.

 

[gofer]

The washer Scott is talking about is plastic by the way, not a metal one as that would defeat the purpose. I've even heard of Tuners using the bottom of a styrofoam cup between the block and the knock sensor and it helping with PK too if it's really bothering you.

The best thing you can do to keep it out of your logs is set it correctly in Link, the ALS/Knck tab allows you to play with the settings that activate the KS. Everyone has their own preferences but typically you'll see settings to activate it at 3k rpm and 35% throttle.

Also, next time you've got the IM off check the torque on the KS as it should be at 17 ft/lbs.

 

[NewTurboTuner]

I edited my 1st post to include a Link Log.

Thx

 

[gofer]

Small Kock Count? WTF

 

[NewTurboTuner]

Oh shish !

EDIT:
File Name FIXED!

see gofer... it takes a truly experienced tuner to find the little errors in a log

 

[gofer]

In your small kock count log airflow numbers look great, kock appears to be phantom kock, and your timing advance looks VERY conservative even during spool up.

 

[Dylan0123]

Lol^^

I wonder if a fluidamper or ATI harmonic damper would help with that "issue"?

 

[NewTurboTuner]

just as a reference to the mini-knock issue... here's a example from last night where i see nearly anything. And im making more power in this, than in the 1st example.