Resolved 2G JMF intake manifold

[DSM_GSX01]

Ok i want to make 400-500hp maybe more if i can. I want to upgrade my manifold to JMF but dont know what to go with. The Drag or Street or Race Version. I was going to just use my stock manifold but i will be loosing power.

Also i am doing a fuse box relocation and i know i can delete some sensors so what ones can i with the JMF and using dsmlink?

 

[David9er]

Instead of going back and forth like little girls fighting over finger nail polish, just ask somebody that has a 2.3 and switched from a stock manifold to a JMF manifold.

I switched from a stock manifold\TB to a JMF street manifold\1g TB on a E16g turbo. The stock setup was more torquey, 264 cams had decent mid range too, but the top end fell off bad!! After switching manifolds and TB I noticed a very slight delay in spool, mid range even better, and a top end that still falls off after 6k but not nearly as bad.

Switched to speed density and and new turbo intake (ram air) setup and now the instant spool is back, mid range ever better, and a top end the stays flat (not peaky like a honda, still on 264 cams).

Any time you have more rotational mass it is going to be harder to make an engine spin faster. Remember that there are no "free lunches" in engineering, you have to sacrifice something to gain somewhere else, the trick is to sacrifice something you wont miss. There is a reason Big block V8s spin to 6K and Honda guys destroke to 1.6L so they can spin up to 11-12K. It is a lot like a supercharger, It makes enough power low to mid to justify itself but up top it only robs you of power.

Not saying it can't be done, just that the difficulty level goes way up.

 

[motomattx]

My god. No one is talking about throwing a giant intake on a car because its shiny. You are a clown. We are talking about matching an intake to the cams, motor, turbo. At least some of us are. Just because you oversee the door cards at the Lear plant doesn't mean jack.

Oh really? WE arent talking about matching anything to anything, I am the only one talking about matching a manifold to a cars setup, the other idiots want to the guy to throw a DRAG manifold on a STREET car, maybe you should pay attention you CLOWN!

Any time you have more rotational mass it is going to be harder to make an engine spin faster. Remember that there are no "free lunches" in engineering, you have to sacrifice something to gain somewhere else, the trick is to sacrifice something you wont miss. There is a reason Big block V8s spin to 6K and Honda guys destroke to 1.6L so they can spin up to 11-12K. It is a lot like a supercharger, It makes enough power low to mid to justify itself but up top it only robs you of power.

Not saying it can't be done, just that the difficulty level goes way up.

The less educated dont seem to understand this, you might as well save your breath.

You say check the join dates as if that determines your knowledge of dsm is greater vs somebody who joined just yesterday. If my eyes are correct you only just joined in 2010.
As for discussion about 2.3/2.4l motors and bigger cams. Where does anybody say strokers have to run larger cams? Again, you need to stop constantly trying to compare a stock motor build by the manufacturer for fuel economy to a personal build performance motor as Mitsu engineers could care less what kind of output a sohc 2.4l would put out in a galant/spyder gs..etc.

Yes, it is true that stroker motors get their increased torque from increasing intake velocity, however, by increasing intake velocity you are in a sense overrunning the stock intake manifold and cams. Its as you say, the Mitsu engineers arent stupid right?(they designed a 2.0 motor with a specific runner length and plenum size for the 2.0 and not a 2.3/2.4)

In any case, in a performance standpoint, as a 500hp engine is far from factory. With the stroker motors you are able to offset intake plenum sizing due to the fact that you are changing the base airflow/cfm/velocity of the engine allowing you to go bigger without as much loss seen with a 2.0 motor and larger plenum. It is because of the increase of intake velocity the side effects of larger cams and their overlap are not as extreme as would be on a 2.0. That is why they can go bigger.

And you comments on Buscher and Marco... All I have to say to you is read this thread.

Magnus V5 vs AMS F1 Intake - Page 4 - evolutionm.net

If you look back you will see that my other account with this same name was registered quite a bit before this one, but I had problems with it that the crew here couldnt figure out so I just started new. I had an old one before that even that I forgot the log on details on since I hadnt been on for years, it goes back to the very begining of the site.

Taking David out of context will get you no where with this guy.

 

[Phantom DSM]

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I need one now to describe the tragedy in this thread ! C'mon guys seriously, the OP has not even discussed this car being a pure street car. Hes got a 2.3 and he was discussing getting dsmlink v3 with Speed density in another thread. He should have more tune capability and spool/cruise/ low end torque/ effects wont be that bad. You guys have good points, but it will not be that noticeable.
2g heads have better velocity than 1g and even a mismatch wont be too problamatic to show loss of performance. Lots of people go with 272 cams before they bother with IM swaps and know what they are sacrificing.
Motomattx, since you have a flow bench..have you tried putting your theory to the test?

Edit:I found one

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[motomattx]

Yes, I have definately put my (theory) to the test, and it only proved what published research and long accepted scientific knowledge had already proven decades ago, that larger plenums cause loss of throttle response both transient and off idle, and that beyond the ideal plenum size there are zero gains. JMfabrications btw has also made it a point to only recommend the drag manifold to people who's cars are being purpose built to see the strip, that rarely see street use. What do the manifold manufacturers know though? I'm sure a bunch of 20 year old college kids know much more. I will post this again for reference since I like to back up what I say with proof.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/bolt-tech/277606-jm-fab-street-vs-race-street-numbers.html

From the first post:

JM Fab Street vs. race. Street numbers

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was thinking of going for the street version of the JM fab manifold. I can't find any numbers on the street version. I talked to Jim at JM and he advised the drag version at first but when considering the type of mid power I want and the all around car that I expect mine to be we settled on the street version. I just wanted to see if there are any numbers out there. If not come this spring I will have some. I also don't want to wish I had gotten the drag version either. Any imput is welcome.. Here are my mods. I drag and autocross (I just like to race!) if anyone was wondering..

 

[Phantom DSM]

Yes, I have definately put my (theory) to the test, and it only proved what published research and long accepted scientific knowledge had already proven decades ago, that larger plenums cause loss of throttle response both transient and off idle, and that beyond the ideal plenum size there are zero gains. JMfabrications btw has also made it a point to only recommend the drag manifold to people who's cars are being purpose built to see the strip, that rarely see street use. What do the manifold manufacturers know though? I'm sure a bunch of 20 year old college kids know much more. I will post this again for reference since I like to back up what I say with proof.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/bolt-tech/277606-jm-fab-street-vs-race-street-numbers.html

From the first post:

JM Fab Street vs. race. Street numbers

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was thinking of going for the street version of the JM fab manifold. I can't find any numbers on the street version. I talked to Jim at JM and he advised the drag version at first but when considering the type of mid power I want and the all around car that I expect mine to be we settled on the street version. I just wanted to see if there are any numbers out there. If not come this spring I will have some. I also don't want to wish I had gotten the drag version either. Any imput is welcome.. Here are my mods. I drag and autocross (I just like to race!) if anyone was wondering..

That thread was from 2007, was JM Fab putting velocity stacks in their manifolds back then?
I guess in a nutshell we can look at this as a choice between street and drag, based on how you want to make power, rather than driving habit, because all this arguing creates negativity.
In my opinion, based on power potential and "matchability" , as to not sacrifice performance:
50 lb/min or less (20g or smaller) run the Street version
Over 50 lb/min (Fp30,35r, black, etc.) run the drag version.
These are not rules, simply to point in right direction if someone wants to realize full potential of a SMIM modification. Im open to discussion and criicism.

 

[lasthope05]

Taking David out of context will get you no where with this guy.

Those quotes are taken directly from the thread because you brought Buschur up . David has built and tested many manifolds of different lengths sizes etc and he himself says the larger plenum intakes are more suited for 2.3l and up. Im guessing you didn't even bother reading the entire thread. Either way the info is up and people can make their own decisions.

In case you want to challenge his experience with manifolds I'll leave you with this.

http://highboostforum.com/forum/showthread.php/20866-Intake-manifold-dyno-tests-and-facts-only


This is going to be my last post, I have nothing else to add to a dead thread.

 

[Seamus]

Oh really? WE arent talking about matching anything to anything, I am the only one talking about matching a manifold to a cars setup, the other idiots want to the guy to throw a DRAG manifold on a STREET car, maybe you should pay attention you CLOWN!.

I guess the school of reading comp isn't as strong at the Cletus buckwalter school of engineering.

The only thing you keep talking about is plenum volume. As the airflow capabilities of the motor increase, intake volume should increase. How can you argue that? You obviously don't even know enough to add something intelligent on the plenum architecture or runner design. Some here just post nonsense to pass the time, some post useful info from experience. You seem to be doing the former.

Btw since when did your join date mean anymore than claiming your an automotive engineer on a website? That is so petty I am now questioning wether you are even an adult.

 

[crimsondragon]

Those quotes are taken directly from the thread because you brought Buschur up . David has built and tested many manifolds of different lengths sizes etc and he himself says the larger plenum intakes are more suited for 2.3l and up. Im guessing you didn't even bother reading the entire thread. Either way the info is up and people can make their own decisions.

In case you want to challenge his experience with manifolds I'll leave you with this.

Intake manifold dyno tests and facts only.


This is going to be my last post, I have nothing else to add to a dead thread.

Great thread. I remember Driven Innovations making really bold claims that their manifolds were the end all to all manifolds. Good to see HKS haven't lost their touch.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Sooo anyway what do you guys think of the jmf drag manifold for a 35r

 

[motomattx]

I guess the school of reading comp isn't as strong at the Cletus buckwalter school of engineering.

The only thing you keep talking about is plenum volume. As the airflow capabilities of the motor increase, intake volume should increase. How can you argue that? You obviously don't even know enough to add something intelligent on the plenum architecture or runner design. Some here just post nonsense to pass the time, some post useful info from experience. You seem to be doing the former.

Btw since when did your join date mean anymore than claiming your an automotive engineer on a website? That is so petty I am now questioning wether you are even an adult.

...And until you bring any relevent research into this thread you are going to be put on the ignore list.

Those quotes are taken directly from the thread because you brought Buschur up . David has built and tested many manifolds of different lengths sizes etc and he himself says the larger plenum intakes are more suited for 2.3l and up. Im guessing you didn't even bother reading the entire thread. Either way the info is up and people can make their own decisions.

In case you want to challenge his experience with manifolds I'll leave you with this.

Intake manifold dyno tests and facts only.


This is going to be my last post, I have nothing else to add to a dead thread.

Reading comprehension must not be your strong suit, if you scroll down to the last post you will see that Dave summed all of his tests up with the conclusion that long runners and a big plenum are most well suited to HIGH RPM engine setups! aka drag car, not what a 2.3 stroker being driven daily will be seeing.

Oh by the way, I live within 45 minutes of Daves shop and drop in every once in a while on him when I'm in the area, I was there during some of the manifold testing so of course I know about the testing.

 

[EclipticalGS]

I'm surprised this thread is still open.

Regardless, the OP never stated which turbo he was going to use. So going by what he currently has (16g), I see a lot of benefits with a SMIM. A 2.3L with the stock manifold is going to have a really quick torque curve that will fall off well before the 8k redline he wanted to achieve.
One of the main positives of going to a stroker is to spool the larger turbos us 2.0L guys have lag with. That said, the OP said he wants to both drag and autocross the car.
All I see is people trying to convince him to build a quick spooling autocross car that has no top end for drag.

We don't have 6 or 8 cylinders to work with here. So for example, the added advantage of being able to spool an hx35 500-1000 rpms sooner (in some cases dependant on setup), comes with the disadvantage of killing flow at the top end. To maintain the flow up top, a slightly larger plenum with straight runners will sacrifice minimal spool up (still besting a 2.0L), but will be able to hold the power up top as well with same power (as the 2L), but with less boost.

If the OP wants the best of both worlds I don't see how a street or race manifold paired with a stroker and a mid-framed 400-500hp turbo will put him at any disadvantage.

 

[diambo4life]

Sooo anyway what do you guys think of the jmf drag manifold for a 35r

In my opinion...no. Street or a ported stocker would be best.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

In my opinion...no. Street or a ported stocker would be best.

For a drag car... For maxing out a 3586

 

[DSM_GSX01]

I am going to run the FP black, I Havnt decided on injectors yet. I know on the intake manifold i am going to run JMF.

 

[gofer]

Closing until I can clean this up.