2g AWD Auto DD - Summer Build - Advice?

[knochgoon24]

I finally go a job lined up for the summer that will give me some extra spending $$$. I've been wanting to do this for the last year, and now I think I'll finally have the chance.

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Goal:
About 350whp. Auto AWD. This is my DD, so I want to keep some low end torque.

I'm trying to keep this a budget build using used parts where I can. I'm a college student and money is tight.

Background:
Current engine is a replacement the the previous owner had installed 85k miles ago. Unknown mileage on donor engine.
The transmission was rebuilt 65k miles ago. It has all the really bad shift flares. I even have the P1750 CEL.

About 8k on timing belt components.

************CURRENT MODS************
NXS MBC @ 15psi
Hard intake pipe
CXRacing FMIC 29x8x3.5
2.5" IC Pipe Kit
Custom Full 3" Turbo-back Exhaust
All new hoses, gaskets, and belts
Tubular o2 housing
HKS SSQV
NGK BPR7ES gapped to .028"
Stock Fuel Pump Rewired
Stock 450cc Injectors
Stock FPR
BSE

Boost Gauge
Oil Pressure Gauge
LC-1
EvoScan
SAFC 2

**********PLANNED UPGRADES**********

TURBO
HY35 (9cm^2 T3 housing, fed from OFH w/ Restrictor)
-Buy it off Ebay & rebuild

EXHAUST
Custom Tubular Manifold (friend who builds hot rods is going to help me out)
Custom O2 Housing (same friend...)
Tial 38mm External WG Recirc'ed

TUNING
3" GM MAF
Maf-T
Evo 8 Ecu
EvoScan/EvoFlash

FUEL
Walbro 255hp
680cc Injectors
AFPR

ENGINE
Hopefully it just needs honed.
New Rings
1g Rods? Maybe...
New Water Pump
New Front Case
BSE
New Timing Belt (Oil got on belt)
Saturn Alternator Swap
Evo OFH w/ Oil Cooler
ALC Tri-Metal Bearings
APR Head Studs
ARP Rod Bolts


HEAD
264/264 or 272/272?
New SS valves, seals, and guides
3g Lifters

TRANSMISSION
IPT Shift Kit
IPT Rebuild or End Clutches (depends on $$$)

OTHER
Battery Relocation
2 - 12" Slimline fans
Aluminum Radiator

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Now, I have a few questions.

1)I don't know what rods to get. 1g Rods are fine for the power I plan to run, but are there any others I should consider?

2)Should I go 264/264, 264/272, or 272/272 with the cams? This will only occasionally see the track and it is an automatic.

3)Would a Walbro 190hp work? I'd rather not have the whine, but I've never been in a car with a 255 to hear it, so I don't know.

4)I plan on running the Evo 8 Ecu. Should I get the Evo 8 Maf-T? It's all adjustable with ECUFlash, but I'm not sure which to get to simplify things.

5)When it comes to injectors, I should be fine with anything larger than 550s, correct? So I can go with a good deal on a used set larger than that?

If anyone has anything critiques on this, feel free. This should be feasible with about $2000, right, since I'm fine buying used? I can do all the work, except the machining, myself.

 

[2slow4utsi]

1)I don't know what rods to get. 1g Rods are fine for the power I plan to run, but are there any others I should consider? 1g rods will be more than enough.

2)Should I go 264/264, 264/272, or 272/272 with the cams? This will only occasionally see the track and it is an automatic. Any cam will be a huge upgrade from stock. I'd probably go a 264/272 combo.

3)Would a Walbro 190hp work? I'd rather not have the whine, but I've never been in a car with a 255 to hear it, so I don't know. The whine is sick I have it in mine. You can definitely hear it. People always ask me if my pump is going or what's wrong with my car. Btw, 190 would be fine I think.

4)I plan on running the Evo 8 Ecu. Should I get the Evo 8 Maf-T? It's all adjustable with ECUFlash, but I'm not sure which to get to simplify things. Not really sure what to tell you here. 2g MAF would probably suffice or a GM MAF.

5)When it comes to injectors, I should be fine with anything larger than 550s, correct? So I can go with a good deal on a used set larger than that? I'd get something bigger than 550s for the turbo you plan to run. You shouldn't need much bigger than like a 650 or something with the hp you plan to achieve.

 

[toofast82]

If your current engine is still healthy, just use it and throw some headstuds in there and do timing belts as you mentioned.
A 190lph or evo9 pump should get you to 350whp, but not leave you much, if any, room. But it will enable you to retain stock regulator without issues, saving $$
I wouldn't worry about the MAf-T and Gm MAF and just stick with your 2g or Evo8 Mas. Neither are a restriction at this point.
I would recommend a better trans cooler and either the "blue-wire" mod or Roadsurge Shiftbox in addition to the trans mods you have listed.
I believe they can reflash the Evo ecu to whatever injectors you want to run, which you can go bigger and have room to grow. They also have roms for Speed Density, too.
Stock radiators have always worked well for me as well as stock fans, but fans probably won't fit with hy-35

 

[knochgoon24]

My stock radiator is shot. It's bent and beaten. The fans might be able to fit since my friend and I are doing a 1-off custom manifold.

The engine is starting to blow smoke. The turbo seems to be holding strong, so I'm pretty sure it's either rings or valve seals. Last time I had the exhaust manifold off, the exhaust ports were wet on 3 of the cylinders. I thought about just throwing headstuds in and running it until it blows, then I'd do the engine internals, kinda like a 2 stage project. Until I finally decide to do a compression test, I won't know for sure. My guess is that the engine has at least 120k miles, probably more like 150k.

The MAF-T was more for cleanliness and venting than a reduction of restriction. The SSQV, the automatic transmission, and the stock MAF aren't getting along too well. It's hard to explain, but I think a MAF-T setup will fix it.

I thought about adding a trans cooler to my list. I wonder if one salvaged from a pickup would suffice? I'm moving the trans cooler to the stock SMIC spot anyway.

Thanks for the advice guys, keep it coming.

 

[toofast82]

The engine is starting to blow smoke. The turbo seems to be holding strong, so I'm pretty sure it's either rings or valve seals. Last time I had the exhaust manifold off, the exhaust ports were wet on 3 of the cylinders. I thought about just throwing headstuds in and running it until it blows,
The SSQV, the automatic transmission, and the stock MAF aren't getting along too well. It's hard to explain, but I think a MAF-T setup will fix it.

I would do a compression test, and if that checks out good, then go to a leakdown test and maybe its just in the cylinder head. Thats a great opportunity for headgasket and studs. If your lower end is no good, then you want to rebuild before you throw more power at it.

I'm assuming your trying to vent to atmosphere, I had a 96gsx auto with a greddy bov and it didn't like open venting. I put a hose back on and never had another issue.
Speed density programmed into the evo8 ecu will allow you to vent when the time comes!

 

[knochgoon24]

As of right now, I'm recirculating. When the BOV opens, the reading from the MAF goes haywire. I can watch it spike on my SAFC.


Kinda like:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

The RPM drop then go back to normal after the spiking. I'll try to get a log from EvoScan on here sometime. I have a video on my cell phone too, but I need to convert it out of .3gp first.

It's the worst when the auto trans is in 4th, like on the highway. I have to turn the O/D off in the city or else it stutters around as I feather the gas in stop and go traffic.

I'm hoping the GM MAF will fix this.

With good weather this weekend, I hope to do a compression test.

 

[rush2252]

First off.. autos can be fun. Secondly your goals and car are the same as mine. Im shooting for 350whp awd auto DD. I would suggest a little different route on the turbo. Have you considered the small 16g? With the 680s small 16g FMIC a mild cam setup and a good tune your there.

The small 16g is very underrated. Im running it now and love the fact that it spools decently and still has potential uptop. Its only seen 17psi before I backed the MBC back down until I get further supporting mods.

As for the BOV autos are a little different when venting. Youll probably second that you cant really cruise with the O/D I think you were getting at the whenever you stated you had to run in 4th. If your venting the stocker DONT. At least the car will run with the 1g or aftermarket BOV. Venting is asking for trouble and as mentioned before you wont ever need a MAFT or blowthrough setup for your goal the 2g MAF is enough but im assuming your spending upwards of $300 for that woosh?

Hardpiping, FMIC and a larger turbo will give you some sound effects w/out hurting performance like venting


Kolby

 

[knochgoon24]

First off.. autos can be fun. Secondly your goals and car are the same as mine. Im shooting for 350whp awd auto DD. I would suggest a little different route on the turbo. Have you considered the small 16g? With the 680s small 16g FMIC a mild cam setup and a good tune your there.

The small 16g is very underrated. Im running it now and love the fact that it spools decently and still has potential uptop. Its only seen 17psi before I backed the MBC back down until I get further supporting mods.

As for the BOV autos are a little different when venting. Youll probably second that you cant really cruise with the O/D I think you were getting at the whenever you stated you had to run in 4th. If your venting the stocker DONT. At least the car will run with the 1g or aftermarket BOV. Venting is asking for trouble and as mentioned before you wont ever need a MAFT or blowthrough setup for your goal the 2g MAF is enough but im assuming your spending upwards of $300 for that woosh?

Hardpiping, FMIC and a larger turbo will give you some sound effects w/out hurting performance like venting


Kolby

See, I've debated on running an 16g, 18g, or 20g, but I kinda want to try the Holset. My goals are about 350 hp... for now. I want to try the hy35 because you don't hear of too many DSMs running one. People say the hx35 spools just a bit later than a 16g by using the BEP housing (.55 a/r). The hy35 housing is a bit smaller than that with a .48 a/r.
Since this isn't a drag car revving to the moon, I don't need that higher flowing top end as much; I want the smaller housing for a bit of spool.

I have a HKS SSQV and I think it may be what's causing my problems. The smaller valve in it keeps opening whenever I let off the gas in the slightest. The Ebay type-s I had didn't do this, but it leaked. I have a hard intake and can hear the BOV loud and clear, but I'm looking at this from a performance angle. When I autocrossed about a month ago, it kept stuttering every time I left off the gas. I wasn't really building boost because it was a short, slow, technical course. I'm hoping to keep the SSQV since I plan to run a higher boost and it won't leak. I'm also hoping that by switching to the GM MAF (post BOV), I can either vent or recirc without having that spike show up in the air flow readings.

And on an auto, 4th is O/D. By turning the O/D off, you just run the first 3 gears.

 

[BoostFrenzy]

Im shooting for 350whp awd auto DD.

Have you considered the small 16g? With the 680s small 16g FMIC a mild cam setup and a good tune your there.

You sure about that? You wouldn't be able to get that out of a small 16g at anything lower then probably 23PSI. Mind you, that's with a manual transmission. An auto trans robs even more power to the wheels so it would need to be even more boost. An Evo3 16g or his original hy should be good depending on the preferred boost level of said power.

 

[knochgoon24]

You sure about that? You wouldn't be able to get that out of a small 16g at anything lower then probably 23PSI. Mind you, that's with a manual transmission. An auto trans robs even more power to the wheels so it would need to be even more boost. An Evo3 16g or his original hy should be good depending on the preferred boost level of said power.

That was one of my other reasons for looking at the HY35 instead of a 16g. Auto and AWD is going to suck some power out of my setup.

Further searching has shown that several people have started builds with a HY35 but only one has finished, and he doesn't have dyno numbers up.

 

[GsXdSmKingGsX]

Dude you already have a nice little setup in that car

 

[toofast82]

The 16gs will be nice with the stock converter!

 

[rush2252]

regardless of opinion the 16g is capable of his goals and will be cheaper than the holset. As far as the BOV does it have two nipples for a quick release function? You stated the smaller valve keeps opening? Just unhook the quick release or recirc the BOV. You stated you were looking at it from a performance angle but even a noob knows venting is a


Kolby

 

[BoostFrenzy]

regardless of opinion the 16g is capable of his goals and will be cheaper than the holset.

It's not opinion, it's fact. There is a local over here who has a 99 GSX that is running a s16g on a stock block with a big FMIC and at 20PSI he got 300AWHP. Mind you, this was professional tuning by Scot Gray at RRE. Now to get 350AWHP, cams would help a lot (depending on size) but you still wouldn't be at 350AWHP. Up the boost a bit and there's 350AWHP. But again, this is on a manual car. Like I said before Auto transmissions rob a lot of power. So it's up to the OP how high the boost needs to be to get to their goal on a specific turbo.

 

[toofast82]

It's not like he's just going to throw this HY-35 on there and its going to fart and make 350whp. It's still most likely going to require the same stuff as it would to make that power on a 16g(cams, good tune, 22psi+,etc) There are other variables like what fuel he will be using. The pump gas will not allow for as aggressive of a tune as say E85, thus less power

 

[BoostFrenzy]

So you are saying the OP should just rebuild a HX35 and have it giggle its way to 350hp? . Especially since 50trims are apparently soooooooo not the business anymore.

I am starting to think that good brake boosting spool and 350AWHP is pretty damn hard for an auto to get.

 

[toofast82]

I am starting to think that good brake boosting spool and 350AWHP is pretty damn hard for an auto to get.

Yes, it is going to be difficult to get good brake boost response and 350whp. That should be anywhere from 375-400whp on 5spd car. He would be pushing a 16g pretty hard, but will work very well with stock converter. The Hy35 has a compressor that is easily capable of his power goals, but i'm unsure how it will perform when launching despite having a smaller turbine wheel and housing than hx35.
There is the option of a larger converter or nitrous to aid the launch
He's still realistically going to need cams and some other stuff.

 

[BoostFrenzy]

I was going to suggest shooting her up like a heroin addict too but I don't honestly think that the turbos in question even require some squeeze.

 

[toofast82]

I was going to suggest shooting her up like a heroin addict too but I don't honestly think that the turbos in question even require some squeeze.

True, but that's where the rest of his setup will come into play

 

[knochgoon24]

So much to respond to, I was out of town for the last 2 days...

regardless of opinion the 16g is capable of his goals and will be cheaper than the holset. As far as the BOV does it have two nipples for a quick release function? You stated the smaller valve keeps opening? Just unhook the quick release or recirc the BOV. You stated you were looking at it from a performance angle but even a noob knows venting is a


Kolby

It's the SSVQ. Just one nipple for the boost/vac source. It's recirculated now and has always been. My car has never been ran without the BOV recirculated. If you get a chance, read up on the design. It's really ingenious, but I think it also made it too sensitive. SpeedStash.com - HKS Super Sequential Blowoff Valve

The 16g is capable of 400whp on a manual car, but I'm not sure I can even get 350 on an auto with it. As for "cheaper than the holset", yes and no. The turbo itself is not cheaper. I can buy a used HY35 (everyone wants the HX) and rebuild it for less than $250, so it will be "like new". However, I will have to make a new exhaust manifold and o2 housing.

It's not opinion, it's fact. There is a local over here who has a 99 GSX that is running a s16g on a stock block with a big FMIC and at 20PSI he got 300AWHP. Mind you, this was professional tuning by Scot Gray at RRE. Now to get 350AWHP, cams would help a lot (depending on size) but you still wouldn't be at 350AWHP. Up the boost a bit and there's 350AWHP. But again, this is on a manual car. Like I said before Auto transmissions rob a lot of power. So it's up to the OP how high the boost needs to be to get to their goal on a specific turbo.

With the HY35, I think I'll have more headroom if I need more boost. I'd rather run a Holset in a "normal" range than run a 16g at the upper end.

It's not like he's just going to throw this HY-35 on there and its going to fart and make 350whp. It's still most likely going to require the same stuff as it would to make that power on a 16g(cams, good tune, 22psi+,etc) There are other variables like what fuel he will be using. The pump gas will not allow for as aggressive of a tune as say E85, thus less power

Yes, I'll need cams, a good tune and some higher boost with either setup. I can't get E85 around here so that's out.

Yes, it is going to be difficult to get good brake boost response and 350whp. That should be anywhere from 375-400whp on 5spd car. He would be pushing a 16g pretty hard, but will work very well with stock converter. The Hy35 has a compressor that is easily capable of his power goals, but i'm unsure how it will perform when launching despite having a smaller turbine wheel and housing than hx35.
There is the option of a larger converter or nitrous to aid the launch
He's still realistically going to need cams and some other stuff.

Since I'm not drag racing this too often, I'm not worried about good brake boost response. Maybe some day I'll restall the converter, but not this summer. I don't want to run nitrous. If it were a track car... maybe, but it isn't.

I'm pretty much dead set on running the HY35 unless someone can really sway me otherwise. I like to try stuff that hasn't been done too often, for example the same-side in/out intercooler intercooler I run. (And it works quite well... )

Dude you already have a nice little setup in that car

Yes... yes I do. It's pretty quick around town. Really good response. I want to get it dyno'd before I start working on it, just to get a baseline.

Also, I went out and bought a leakdown tester yesterday, so I should be able to get compression and leakdown results... a long as I can figure out the correct way to use the leakdown tester. Seems simple enough. Leak Down Test VFAQ

 

[knochgoon24]

Compression and leakdown results are in!

Compression:
170-160-160-170

Leakdown: <15% on all cylinders. Heard no noised in valve cover or even the oil dipstick. The car was warm from idling. The regulator on the Harbor Freight Leakdown Tester is rubbish. I could probably get more accurate results with a better regulator.

Not going to lie, I'm surprised. I looks like I can get away without touching the motor at all. Just some new cams.

 

[toofast82]

Not going to lie, I'm surprised. I looks like I can get away without touching the motor at all. Just some new cams.

I would put a set of head studs on while you're in there. Glad to hear the motor checked out pretty good!

 

[knochgoon24]

I would put a set of head studs on while you're in there. Glad to hear the motor checked out pretty good!

Oh yeah, most definately. Just washed and waxed it tonight.

Once the paychecks start coming in, so will the boxes full of goodies. I'm starting to watch for a deal on the HY35 now.

 

[toofast82]

Oh yeah, most definately. Just washed and waxed it tonight.

Once the paychecks start coming in, so will the boxes full of goodies. I'm starting to watch for a deal on the HY35 now.

I've definitely always been curious to see what a hy35 would do. It has a 9cm(ar.63) housing so it should have decent spool characteristics and good topend flow. But i'm not sure if the smaller turbine wheel can match the flow of the compressor wheel?
It will obviously be more work to get it mounted than say a 16g obviously. You can buy the holset turbine flange and build your own O2 housing fairly easy and cheap. Do you plan on running external wastegate or internal?

 

[knochgoon24]

I've definitely always been curious to see what a hy35 would do. It has a 9cm(ar.63) housing so it should have decent spool characteristics and good topend flow. But i'm not sure if the smaller turbine wheel can match the flow of the compressor wheel?
It will obviously be more work to get it mounted than say a 16g obviously. You can buy the holset turbine flange and build your own O2 housing fairly easy and cheap. Do you plan on running external wastegate or internal?

It will externally gated for sure. I'm not worried about the top end flow. I'd wrather see a slightly faster spool. The A/R on the 9cm^2 has been tossed all about. I've heard everything from .48 to .63.

I just hit up the diesel forums tonight posting "want to buy" ads. We'll see if I can get a rebuildable one cheap.

The search for used parts begins...