1G PTE 5027E "50 Trim" Question

[JusMX141]

I understand the denotation "SCM" refers to it being a DSM bolt-on turbine housing, but I took that post as HBWaterfowler not realizing that the 5027E is a T3/T4 turbo itself with a DSM bolt-on turbine housing.

Regardless, it's not going to spool like a 16G....a SCM5027E on a properly-tuned 1G should reach full boost anywhere between 3600-3800rpms.

 

[HBWaterfowler]

You do realize the 5027E is a T3/T4 turbo, right?

No, because It bolts up to the stock mounts. The T3/T4 takes a special exhaust mani.

 

[JusMX141]

You're referring to the flange on the turbine inlet being a T3 or a T4....that doesn't mean the turbo is or isn't a "T3/T4" turbo.

The term "T3/T4" describes a Garrett Hybrid turbocharger that uses a T3 turbine wheel mated to a T4 compressor wheel in order to move lots of air while retaining a fairly quick spool characteristic.

With that in mind, the 5027E is a T3/T4 turbo built by Precision using a DSM Bolt-On turbine housing.

 

[HBWaterfowler]

I understand the denotation "SCM" refers to it being a DSM bolt-on turbine housing, but I took that post as HBWaterfowler not realizing that the 5027E is a T3/T4 turbo itself with a DSM bolt-on turbine housing.

Regardless, it's not going to spool like a 16G....a SCM5027E on a properly-tuned 1G should reach full boost anywhere between 3600-3800rpms.

Ok, well. I didn't know the 5027E comes from PTE as a T3/T4, that the "SCM" i guess is a key term. But just for the record, DEJON Powerhouse sells the Low Cost! - Sport Compact Mitsubishi (SCM) Turbos, Model 5027E (50trim) - Price - $899.

Precision Turbo & Engine builds the Garret Sport Compact T3 Series with Journal and 360deg Thrust Bearing center section and their Mitsu style turbine housing which bolts up to exhaust manifolds and O2 housings made for Misu turbos.
We stock the following most popular models and can order any other for you.

These turbos are Oil cooled and will require you to plug the factory water lines
All but the largest turbos come with the "E" compressor housing - 3" inlet / 2" outlet.

Model 5027E Often called the 50trim - Max Rated HP: 425
This turbo is very popular because it works well on the street with a stock engine at low cost.
Compressor wheel dia. 54mm - 50 trim / Spool-Up 3200rpm on 2 liter
Oil cooled center section with journal bearings and 360deg thrust bearing.
T31 Turbine wheel in a .63 A/R housing for good exhaust flow

They seem to think that if you are in the market for a stock mounting turbo, that after the 20g, the next best thing is the PTE SCM.

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The RPM's that they clam the spool up starts at is always off. They say a 16G spools at 3,200... well, my 16G spools much quicker then that. I would say it spools at about 2800, I'm going to have to check for sure after work .

Anyhow, I think it would be my last chance to buy the turbo in the next week or so, if it's not already sold.

They guy said he had it rebuilt at some shop for $300 and it has not worked since. SO it does have a fresh rebuild, I'm thinking something like someone mentioned, it might need to just be primed, or something was overlooked, like balancing.

The thing that caught my eye is, this is a STREET turbo (no drag) and... it's $899.00 new, and can take more abuse from what I understand. The ball bearing is a much newer design compared to the old 1990's Mitsubishi turbos; I would assume that that it's a better design.

I would love to hear from someone that has actually used this turbo in their 1G.

But, most likely I wont be buying the turbo since I'm still tuning my 1G to run good with my 16G. But I'm trying to take advantage of the economy being down and buy up some parts for cheap while I can.

 

[dsm-onster]

MY1GDSM, you don't even know what compressor is used for the pte 61** turbos. And you think that PTE "builds" a turbo from the journal bearing cartridge and throws in Ballistic tech to make it ball bearing and suddenly you have a rebuildable BB turbo??? If that were possible, I assure you that GARRETT, the father of bb tech, would have done this. Being that they have now developed a less than optimistic name in recent years concerning their BB tech means that they can't come up with a solution as easily as you just did guessing in this thread dispite the hundreds of millions more in assets they have vs. you. It's been a few days, so I'm glad to see that you decided to stay out of the thread with your "advice".

I've runn garrett turbos for a decade before I even plunged into T/E/Ls and I've had them blow up more frequently than MHI, holset, or sh!tty toyota ct** turbos.

After having multiple bolt on turbos i first off wouldnt recommend that housing. The mitsu housing is limited to 400-450whp due to to the ar of the housing and the size of the housing itself. Go with a t3, you'll thank me in the long run when you decide to upgrade and dont have money spent on something you didnt have to buy in the first place.
Secondly, the e housing sucks. Pump gas isnt friendly over 20psi unless you have a pretty decent tune

First off, Who runs a turbo over 20psi and has a turbo friendly to pumpgas? Compressor efficiency has VERY little effect on final intake manifold temps.

Your problem was the flow of the turbine not the size of the compressor cover, to which you allude.

Second, a .55 ar turbine housing is a choke to the t31 turbine wheel, but is plenty for the MUCH larger hx40 turbine wheel. Why? because the turbine wheel is the primary determinant of flow and spool. the housing is just used to lightly tweek the flow and spool. It is amazing how many dsmers can't grasp this simple concept.


OP, the t3 stage 2 turbine wheel is a real restriction. The pte 5031 has barely enough t3 turbine wheel with the bolton housing to merrit the t4 50-trim turbine. The faster spooling SMALLER t3 stage 2 turbine wheel of the 5027 will net you exhaust flow close to the evo3 16g. This is because the stage2 turbine wheel is about the size of the stock 16g turbine wheel. And MHI turbine wheels have been known to flow more than their size indicates. Turbine flow determines overall VE. And determines horsepower per psi. You will gain very little or even less horsepower per psi running a t3 stage 2 turbine wheel and bolton housing over a 16g turbine wheel and 7cm^2 turbine housing.

 

[HBWaterfowler]

dsm-onster, thanks.

I think you may be over looking something in your compairason of the 16G with the 5027E. The 16G has a 2.25" inlet, and (not sure on this one) a 1.75" outlet. The 5027E has a 3" inlet and 2" outlet

This turbo is rebuildable.

My 16G maxes out at 24.8 psi, and spools up at 2,400 rpm.

dsm-onster, what do you know about the bearing system for the 5027E? You can order from Dejon tool the 5027E "divided/undivded" and I believe that somehow helps with boost creep, also you can get a T3 (Ford) 5-bolt. I'm not sure what the ford 5bolt is, or what that would help. I'm very courious, weither I buy the turbo or not.

dsm-onster, I'm not sure what you are saying about the turbine/turbine wheel and the xhaust housing and all that. It sounds like you are saying the turbine can put out more power then the exhaust/wheel can take? I dunno.

I'll chekc back later.

THx

 

[JusMX141]

I think you may be over looking something in your compairason of the 16G with the 5027E. The 16G has a 2.25" inlet, and (not sure on this one) a 1.75" outlet. The 5027E has a 3" inlet and 2" outlet

Inlet and outlet size are important, but they're not the defining factor in determining a turbo's overall airflow potential. Look at Curt Brown's car, which ran a 10.33 and made 499awhp with an off-the-shelf Evo III 16G @ 30psi....he didn't seem concerned with the compressor inlet and outlet size on his quest of doing the unthinkable with that particular turbo.

 

[HBWaterfowler]

Yeah, well I bet all the money he spent moding every single thing you can possibly do... to make it hit 499 hp and 10 second 1/4th is as much as a new cobra mustang.

I don't know if you are saying the 16G is awesome thumb or that once you have the all the supporting mods that the turbo can far surpass the stock specs. ???

But the inlet/outlet is very important. You can have a larger intake pipe (3") larger pipe going to your intake, larger intercooler inlet/outlet, larger upper i/c pipe, larger TB. That would be the absolute best think you could do for that part of your turbo system (intake manifold too).

Then the same with exhaust.

It all adds up to better performance.

If that turbo is the same performance give or take, but I get a 3" inlet and 2" outlet... I think it might be worth it (plus you can use the evo III exhaust manifold). I would think with the intake and exhaust upgraded, that it would be a great turbo for a semi-stock DSM.

But, i'm not sure about the bearing used in this turbo. I'm researching, but I can't find much (besides what the manufacturer claims).

 

[HBWaterfowler]

The 5027 has a smaller turbine wheel than the 5031. Technically, it should spool faster then the 50trim with the T31 wheel, but sacrifice top end. Regardless, you will still need the same amount of supporting mods (FMIC, injectors, tuning device, bigger maf, full exhaust, etc).

Thanks Kraka for your comment.

I wanted to see if you or anyone else can confim this as the diffrence between the two turbos. The 5031 has a slower spool and higher top end proformance, and the 5027 has quicker spool and less top end proformance.

Seems very logical.

 

[JusMX141]

But the inlet/outlet is very important. You can have a larger intake pipe (3") larger pipe going to your intake, larger intercooler inlet/outlet, larger upper i/c pipe, larger TB. That would be the absolute best think you could do for that part of your turbo system (intake manifold too).

I have a Turbonetics 60-1 here at the shop with a "T04S" compressor cover....4" inlet, 2.5" outlet. I'll bet that baby makes some serious power.

 

[dsm-onster]

dsm-onster, thanks.

I think you may be over looking something in your compairason of the 16G with the 5027E. The 16G has a 2.25" inlet, and (not sure on this one) a 1.75" outlet. The 5027E has a 3" inlet and 2" outlet

This turbo is rebuildable.

My 16G maxes out at 24.8 psi, and spools up at 2,400 rpm.

dsm-onster, what do you know about the bearing system for the 5027E? You can order from Dejon tool the 5027E "divided/undivded" and I believe that somehow helps with boost creep, also you can get a T3 (Ford) 5-bolt. I'm not sure what the ford 5bolt is, or what that would help. I'm very courious, weither I buy the turbo or not.

dsm-onster, I'm not sure what you are saying about the turbine/turbine wheel and the xhaust housing and all that. It sounds like you are saying the turbine can put out more power then the exhaust/wheel can take? I dunno.

I'll chekc back later.

THx

No. I'm not missing anything. Justin is absolutely right. A compressor outlet diameter is NOT that important, relative to the compressor inlet. IT is MUCH easier for a turbo to push than suck. Removing the maf, because of the honeycombs, will add over 5% more flow at the same boost. Enlarge your intercooler piping from 2.5" to 3", a 44% increase in pipe area will show minimal if even recordable gains. Now due to fluid dynamics, a compressor inlet larger than the compressor wheel inducer will actually flow less unless you have Map Width Enhancement ports or a bellmouth radiused entry. Even with the bellmouth entry the final diameter is still only the size of the inducer. If the inducer has the aerodynamic tech to flow more than the same size inducer from another turbo, the compressor inlet won't restrict it, unless it is smaller than the compressor inducer or larger with no bellmouth or MWE ports.

Back to the real issue. What is the use of having a high flowing compressor, if you cant get the flow out of the motor. The turbine is restrictive. The compressor has a flow potential. It has a relatively large inducer. But, the overall engine volume flow determines how much flow you can actually extract from the compressor's flow potential. I am saying that the compressor has the potential to put out alot more flow than the turbine will let it. The airflow doesn't just go into the engine. It has to come out. If it comes out at a lower rate than you can put it in, then the overall flow rate is the lower amount. If the difference in engine/turbine flow vs. the compressor flow potential is large enough, then you get surge. Air bounceing back out of the compressor wheel into the intake pipe. This will destroy the charger in short order. It is like having a jar of marbles and using a funnel to fill another jar with those marble. You can pour all the marbles into the funnel inlet all you want but the marble flow will be limited by how many marbles fall out of the funnel outlet.

A turbine also extracts energy from the exhaust gases. A smaller turbine can only extract but so much work from the exhaust gases. The compressor can be helicopter blades, but if the turbine is the size of a MHI td04, then you will only extract the most energy that the td04 can extract. The large compressor needs more energy to rotate. It needs mor energy to flow at it's POTENTIAL than what the turbine wheel can provide. This is why compressor/turbine matching is important.

About the turbine wheel/housing issue. A turbine housing simply tweeks flow a few lb/min and spool a few hundred rpms. This is the simplest way to put it. Don't let any joker fool you into thinking that, by saying that the FPred proved to be just as effective in trap speed in the 7cm^2 turbine housing vs. the 8cm^2 turbine housing. They will go on to tell you that the 7cm^2 turbine housing is all you need to run 10s. But the 7cm^2 turbine housing has about the same area as the .48 a/r Garrett turbine housing, and we all know the t31 50-trim will have a MUCH harder time reaching the 10s with a .48 a/r turbine housing vs. a .63 a/r turbine housing. I'm saying that the characteristics of the whole turbine (wheel and housing) are determied primarily by the wheel. Choose the proper turbine wheel for your setup and goals. Then you can tweek the spool speed a little for peak flow with the turbine housing.

If the "E" means that the centercartridge is Ball Bearing, then how do you rebuild it? If I'm wrong on the nomenclature, then please forgive me. . . I'm researching, and apparently I'm wrong. So forgive me .



Summary: Don't look at the compressor map as the only indicator of the turbochargers potential. You can't get the flow if you can't push out what you can put in. The turbine needs to match the compressor wheel and the goal of the setup. The turbine housing tweeks flow and spool, does not determine flow and spool.

 

[HBWaterfowler]

Well PTE said a rebuild can run between $250-600+

 

[dsm-onster]

WTF that is the difference between a basic journal bearing rebuild, and a whole new BB cartridge. . .

Seams you are biased to this turbo. Get it! By all means, don't let our input influence you if you don't want it to. Just know that this is not the "50-trim". The "50-trim" that is famed in the dsm relm is the t31 turbine wheel and the 50-trim compressor in the e-cover. THIS is the old "pump gas king". The 5027 needs alot more boost to make the same power. Period. As I mentioned, it probably will take the same boost required from your current turbo to reach your goal with the 5027e. You have an evo3 16g, correct? Then you're current turbo has a typical (what 99% of us can do) limit of 425whp too. Just as you quoted PTE as claiming for the 5027e. Other's like CB have gone 75WHP over 425whp with the evo3 16g.

i personally don't recommend any PTE, Garrett, or FP turbo for any goal. Except if you buy the 16g from FP. Old or inferior wheel aerodynamics is not a way to upgrade especially when you have to pay more new. You are getting a great deal on this turbo. You should buy it and sell it on ebay for more and upgrade to an actual upgrade. If not pm me the guy's number. I'll do the same.