Resolved 1G Clutch adjustment

[Magiceton]

Just put in a new clutch, pressure plate and bearing, bled the system, and clutch won't disengage half the time unless I'm trying to put my foot through the floor, video for clutch fork movement reference. What adjustments can I make?

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[92AWDHX40]

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[SixBolt_16G]

In addition to the clutch adjustment above (I used the Jack Transmission method), if youre not aware, there is a particular bleed method for getting all the air out of the slave cylinder because there is a place in the slave where a pocket of air can hide and will stay there no matter how much you bleed...I ran into this last year. Between doing the following method and a tip from a local guy telling me to do the clutch adjustment with the car warmed up and running, my clutch finally worked properly.

Open the bleeder and have someone hold the clutch pedal down while you manually push the fork to completely compress the slave cylinder using your hand and then tighten the bleeder.

If neither of these things make a difference, you'll have to investigate whether the clutch pedal bracket broke and is causing the entire assembly to bend downward when the pedal is depressed. The bracket will have to be welded. Its a problem with 1Gs. My wifes Prelude had to be welded two years ago for the same reason.

 

[miliman13]

I did mines not too long ago I measured the travel-based on member and manual information and I used an auto-bleeder tool you connect to compressor this made a good difference over pumping

Street Build - Red5.

DSM - K series shifter cable upgrade: 50$ As far as I know I'm the first to document and do this. I took some measurements of the cable in the car as a starting reference when searching online. You must be registered to see element. You must be registered to see element.You must be registered...

www.dsmtuners.com

Street Build - Red5.

^ It is.

www.dsmtuners.com

lastly, I adjusted the NUT behind the clutch pedal to achieve auto adjustment from clutch, i do have to go pretty low to floor to get solid nice shifts. I do hear using the S2k slave with OUR rod will give you more throw and essentially raise the engagement point without having to remove the self-adjustment from the clutch when backing out the NUT on the pedal.

 

[Magiceton]

In addition to the clutch adjustment above (I used the Jack Transmission method), if youre not aware, there is a particular bleed method for getting all the air out of the slave cylinder because there is a place in the slave where a pocket of air can hide and will stay there no matter how much you bleed...I ran into this last year. Between doing the following method and a tip from a local guy telling me to do the clutch adjustment with the car warmed up and running, my clutch finally worked properly.

Open the bleeder and have someone hold the clutch pedal down while you manually push the fork to completely compress the slave cylinder using your hand and then tighten the bleeder.

If neither of these things make a difference, you'll have to investigate whether the clutch pedal bracket broke and is causing the entire assembly to bend downward when the pedal is depressed. The bracket will have to be welded. Its a problem with 1Gs. My wifes Prelude had to be welded two years ago for the same reason.

I've tried using an air bleeder, I've tried gravity bleeding, all the fluid coming out is new clear fluid, but the pedal is still soft and no resistance to the floor, could this be my issue?

 

[miliman13]

I've tried using an air bleeder, I've tried gravity bleeding, all the fluid coming out is new clear fluid, but the pedal is still soft and no resistance to the floor, could this be my issue?

you may have a leak in the MASTER

 

[Magiceton]

you may have a leak in the MASTER

It only started after I replaced the slave for peace of mind and then I replaced the clutch and it got way worse
Edit: no fluid loss happens

 

[miliman13]

It only started after I replaced the slave

Sounds like you already know what to do then.

 

[Magiceton]

Sounds like you already know what to do then.

Different bleed method?

 

[SixBolt_16G]

I've tried using an air bleeder, I've tried gravity bleeding, all the fluid coming out is new clear fluid, but the pedal is still soft and no resistance to the floor, could this be my issue?

Doesnt matter. I did the same thing and went through 2 bottles of fresh fluid. The fluid couldnt have been any clearer. What I encountered before doing the method i described above was lack of travel, leading to engagement right off the floor and a soft pedal for a 2600 with a steel braided clutchline. The more the car warmed up, the tougher it was to get into gears just going around the block. Reverse was a grind. The amount of bubbles that came out didnt even seem like a lot, but for some reason it really mattered in my case. I had adjusted the clutch several times and knew I was doing it right. Ending the bleed by compressing the fork with the clutch down made the difference for me and adjusting while the engine was warmed up dialed it in. Youve already bled enough, so just do the compression method above. You very well could have some other issue going on, but this takes 5 minutes to do and like another 10 minutes for the clutch adjustment. If neither work, Id start checking to make sure the bracket isnt broken.

 

[Magiceton]

Doesnt matter. I did the same thing and went through 2 bottles of fresh fluid. The fluid couldnt have been any clearer. What I encountered before doing the method i described above was lack of travel, leading to engagement right off the floor and a soft pedal for a 2600 with a steel braided clutchline. The more the car warmed up, the tougher it was to get into gears just going around the block. Reverse was a grind. The amount of bubbles that came out didnt even seem like a lot, but for some reason it really mattered in my case. I had adjusted the clutch several times and knew I was doing it right. Ending the bleed by compressing the fork with the clutch down made the difference for me and adjusting while the engine was warmed up dialed it in. Youve already bled enough, so just do the compression method above. You very well could have some other issue going on, but this takes 5 minutes to do and like another 10 minutes for the clutch adjustment. If neither work, Id start checking to make sure the bracket isnt broken.

Time for a shim?

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[SixBolt_16G]

Time for a shim?

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Unfortunately I am unfamiliar with shims as Ive never had to use one.

 

[Magiceton]

Unfortunately I am unfamiliar with shims as Ive never had to use one.

From what I understand it's a washer you put under the pivot ball to bring the clutch fork closer and away from the housing, mine is the original trans with 212k miles

 

[pauleyman]

From what I understand it's a washer you put under the pivot ball to bring the clutch fork closer and away from the housing, mine is the original trans with 212k miles

Read This

 

[Magiceton]

The following statements are my opinions but they are based on 26 years of wrenching on mitsubishis and 21 of those years on DSMs. This applies to 4g63 cars only. I am not commenting on a 420a clutch although some things do apply.

This is not meant to be just DSM specific but could be applied to many cars. That being said a few basic things need to be pointed out.

1. There are not AWD or FWD clutches. A turbo DSM uses the same clutch whether it's FWD or AWD. They do NOT use the same flywheel.

2. An NT flywheel is flat and is not the same as a turbo flywheel nor is the clutch the same. Turbos use a stepped flywheel and a 225mm clutch disk vs the NT 215mm disk.

3. Extended slaves do not work. They are a bandaid. Now before you go and bash me read this. If you install one and it makes a difference the following is why or why not. A clutch hydraulic system must be allowed to self adjust as a clutch wears. When the system is static there is no pressure on anything and the fluid is free to move. As a clutch wears the fingers on the pressure plate will change positions because the thickness of the disk is changing so the position of the fork changes. If a hydraulic system could not self adjust then as the clutch wears the system would become preloaded (similar to riding the clutch). DSMs do not work this way. You'll notice you should be able to push the slave back into it's bore easily unless one of the following exists.
a. The master has been adjusted so far you have effectively pressed the clutch pedal which closes off the valve in the master and you have a nonadjusting system at that point.
b. You have installed an extended slave rod and have bottomed the piston out in its bore so you have effectively limited its travel backward and preloaded the system. It's like you are pressing the clutch slightly before you ever press the pedal. Yes, this could aid in clutch disengagement but at the expense of the same types of wear you could expect from constantly having your foot on the clutch. Throwout bearing, crank thrust bearings, clutch pressure plate, fork, pivot, slave, and master all experience increased wear.

4. Shims under the pivot ball are a bandaid. I am not a fan but I can understand why people use them. It's is easily understood that the travel of the slave does not transmit in a straight line to the clutch. There is an arc involved and some trigonometry would help. If some angels/distances are changed one could see why people think it's necessary to add shims. The differences are most certainly real (flywheel step height machining for example) but the changes are very very small, thousandths of an inch. Could this be enough? Who's to say. Unless you have objective measurements of clutch disengagement travel, slave travel and throwout bearing travel I don't see how anyone could objectively comment. I do not use shims. I make damn sure the components I use elsewhere are up to spec and fresh. If you machined .020 off the flywheel and add a .020 shim to the pivot ball, that is your business. haphazardly adding various thickness shims is a bad idea, again, in my opinion.

5. Besides wearing a clutch can slip if it doesn't have enough pressure holding the disk and flywheel/pressure plate together. If you're a turbo car and the step height is too deep you just potentially reduced the clamping force of the clutch. If it's too shallow the same could happen in addition to possibly not disengaging. If you preloaded the clutch because the master is over-adjusted or you use an extended slave rod you could potentially be "riding the clutch" causing it to slip.

Now with those out of the way let's discuss how a clutch works and why we seem to have so much trouble. Any clutch design similar to a DSM (and many are) you have a pressure plate diaphragm spring system with internal pivots that provide pressure against the disk. Now here is where it gets interesting. We need stronger clutches to hold more power but clutch manufacturers do not just simply make the springs stiffer. It isn't practical as the system gets too stiff. We are talking about a system of springs and fulcrums etc. So what manufacturers do in addition to upping spring pressure is they change the pivot point to gain more leverage. What is the disadvantage to this? It requires more travel to completely disengage. Add this to a relatively narrow window of adjustment, worn components etc and you can see why so many DSMs have problems with clutch disengagement. This is unfortunately something we live with within the small surface area we have to work with. Eventually somebody came along with a twin disk clutch and changed all the rules. Lots more friction area within the same 225mm space.

Did you also know that there are different diameter slave bores available? Parts stores often list 90-99 ALL the same. Slaves are out there with either 3/4" or 13/16" bores depending on year, model and options. Mix and match NT and turbo etc and it's starts to get interesting. For the record on OEM there was a color code that may still exist. Red pistons are 3/4 and green ones are 13/16.

It is well known that our pedals are prone to wear but few know what wears or what it affects? On a 1g there are several bushings both on the pedal assembly itself and where the clevis pins goes through the clutch pedal lever. The largest wear point is usually where the clutch lever bolts to the pedal assembly. You can see this at the opposite end of where the master cylinder clevis attaches to the clutch lever. Usually, you can simply grab the two and twist them relative to one another. If this is the case a repair must be made. 2gs do not have this issues because their pedal design is completely different.

I wrote this because I am tired of people posting about how their clutch is doing this or that and there are no objectively statements being made and a lot of assumptions....for instance.

A new flywheel is the correct step height.
For what clutch? Even the same manufacturer. Are you sure? Did you measure? Did you measure with a caliper or a proper depth mic?
On a similar note, "my machinist made sure it was the correct step height". how do you know? Did you measure? If the answer is no you do not know, you assume. A good machinist should not mind if you ask for a depth mic to check the work.

My master and slave are new so they must be good? See the points above about different bore sizes. Not all parts allow the same amount of travel either. If a master gets pushed a little further before it closes the valve what happens? Less travel at the slave. I trust OEM and no other unless I had objective data to support they are the same.

I check the pedal and it looks good. What does that mean? Checked it how? Looked at it?

I'm all about helping people but some objective comments need to be present in order to do so.

Please, discuss, rant, comment etc. These comments are my own and are meant to provide information. Nothing more.

This here is with the clutch pedal all the way down, it appears the fork is maxed out at the internal housing, and the clutch is not disengaging all the way. Would a shim be useful here, or should I look into a new fork and pivot?

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[pauleyman]

Are you using an nt trans, flywheel and clutch? If you are interested would suspect air in the system still. Did you use some of the tips mentioned?

 

[Magiceton]

Are you using an nt trans, flywheel and clutch? If you are interested would suspect air in the system still. Did you use some of the tips mentioned?

Mine is a 1.8, so turbo parts aren't part of the question , so ye, they're all NT, is the clutch fork meant to touch the inside of the bell housing? I've tried the press and compress, I've tried an air bleeder, I'm debating on getting a speed bleeder valve and see if that helps

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[pauleyman]

Mine is a 1.8, so turbo parts aren't part of the question , so ye, they're all NT, is the clutch fork meant to touch the inside of the bell housing? I've tried the press and compress, I've tried an air bleeder, I'm debating on getting a speed bleeder valve and see if that helps

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There is less to go wrong on an NT. Was this working well before you changed the clutch?

 

[Magiceton]

There is less to go wrong on an NT. Was this working well before you changed the clutch?

I replaced the slave for peace of mind because the boot was torn, it felt soft after, I replaced the clutch because it was slipping and fluid contaminated, then it started not disengaging all the way and still felt really soft and fully engages immediately off the floor

 

[pauleyman]

I replaced the slave for peace of mind because the boot was torn, it felt soft after, I replaced the clutch because it was slipping and fluid contaminated, then it started not disengaging all the way and still felt really soft and fully engages immediately off the floor

If you did a slave change and it didnt work after you 100% still have air in the system. There is also the possibility have the wrong slave. Different piston diameters are available. An adjustment is in order regardless because you changed the clutch. Adjustment is at the master under the dash.

 

[Magiceton]

If you did a slave change and it didnt work after you 100% still have air in the system. There is also the possibility have the wrong slave. Different piston diameters are available. An adjustment is in order regardless because you changed the clutch. Adjustment is at the master under the dash.

And the fork hitting the inside of the bell house like it is in the photo?

 

[pauleyman]

And the fork hitting the inside of the bell house like it is in the photo?

Im not seeing that. Looks like it has 1/4inch to go. You sure there isnt an install error on the clutch?

 

[Magiceton]

Im not seeing that. Looks like it has 1/4inch to go. You sure there isnt an install error on the clutch?

The inside of the bell house, not the inspection port. On the inside, there's a curved bump that the fork hits right behind the rivot for the fulcrum point

 

[pauleyman]

The inside of the bell house, not the inspection port. On the inside, there's a curved bump that the fork hits right behind the rivot for the fulcrum point

In that case you have a clutch problem or a crank thrust problem. There aren't really any other possibilities I can think of.

 

[Magiceton]

In that case you have a clutch problem or a crank thrust problem. There aren't really any other possibilities I can think of.

That's why I was wondering if possibly the pivot ball/fork is worn down after 32 years of action