1g Auto - power questions

[Rumbarger]

Anybody know - How much smaller are the turbo/injectors in my 1g Auto?
- How much power can they support?
I've also read that the ECU in the auto is set up for these smaller parts, making more low-end torque, Is this correct and how big is the difference?
Any educated replies would be greatly appreciated.

 

[xveganxcowboyx]

I really don't know much, but your injectors should be 390cc. That will limit you on power somewhat, but if you're going for power you'll probably upgrade anyway. Again, if you're going for power you'll probably be doing some tuning so don't worry about what the ecu says.

Not sure how much less the turbo flows. I'd like to see some info on that myself.

 

[rare1]

I've swapped my fuel injectors,and camshafts with ones from a manual trans and haven't had a problem yet. Runs a little better also. Haven't done the turbo swap yet.

 

[dsm-onster]

the manual tranny turbo (14B) flows 125 cfm more than the auto!!! It's a worthy upgrade.

Upgrading injectors means upgrading ecus. Swapping in 450s should be not that bad if you swap in the mnula ecu that matches. I BELIEVE the maps may be a little different. But considering the boost potential over the stock auto tranny turbo, you'll still be happy.

Yes, the 13G spools quicker than the 14b, which leads to slightly more stock torque on the low end (not peak torque). But its almost all tapped out at any psi over stock. If you plan on doing ANY mods to you car, it's not worth it to keep the quicker spooling turbo. The 14b is not that slow in spool time anyway .

 

[TheMadCheshire]

definately worth swaping the turbo. I swapped out the turbo and noticed a big difference. I even dropped the boost down to stock(~11) because of the smaller injectors. I was running 14 pounds on the 13g and it felt the same, if not better, with the 14b at stock.

Now I have put in a manual ECU and the 450cc injectors. Runs great and other than some bad valve seals, I am a happy camper.

With the 14b I have plenty of room for potential and have plenty of work ahead of me, but I can wait to make my car even faster.

 

[staticbrainwash]

I did the manual swap a few years ago. 14b, ecu, injectors, cams, but left the fpr.

Has been awesome for me. Definitely noticed a power gain. The stock a/t stuff is just tiny. And you can sell your 13g to a 3k owner!

 

[dsm-onster]

Just to clear up any misconceptions. I was talking about compressor flow not turbine flow.

You felt more power at a lower boost w/ the 14b because it runs a larger td05H turbine wheel in a larger 6cm^2 housing. The 13g runs a tdo4h turbine in a 5cm^2 housing. Quite a bit of difference. You're now seeing more overall VE which yields more power. Hat the 13g employed atdo5h 6cm^ turbine (same as a 14b), you would have hardly felt a difference.

Also when upgradign to a 14b, you have given yourself another cheap bolt on option: upgrading to a 16g 7 cm^2 turbine housing. This housing has shown to really wake up the 14b up top. And the lag is VERY minimal. I just got a 7cm^2 turbine housing for $50 shipped. So. . . you can upgrade to the 14b and get lots more power potential. Then you can get even MORE potential paying 50 bones for a bigger turbine housing.

 

[staticbrainwash]

Where did you get that turbine housing? Because i just ported my stock 14b like crazy, but having another option would be nice too.

 

[dsm-onster]

The classifieds on here. . . I can pm you the guy who sold it to me. He's a good guy. He has another one. . . I don't know what he wants to do w/ it. I think he wanted to put one on a small 16g he has and sell. He may want a little more if this is the case. But it wouldn't hurt to ask.

But, most 7cm^2 turbine housings go for that price. I've seen 2 well ported ones go for $75 shipped each.

Porting is good and will help. But there's nothing like just getting a bigger volute.

 

[staticbrainwash]

Please do, i'd like to see what he'd like for it. Not that i want to pull everything apart AGAIN for it. So haha, nm. I'll be lazy and be happy with my hogged out stock housing.

I do recommend the swap though to anyone wanting to get a little more power from the a/t for cheap.

There was talk for a while about some kind of injector compensation on the a/t ecu for between shifts or something, but, my car has been awesome with it for quite a while.

 

[dsm-onster]

PM sent.

There was talk for a while about some kind of injector compensation on the a/t ecu for between shifts or something, but, my car has been awesome with it for quite a while.

Could you explain that a little more? That is interesting.

 

[staticbrainwash]

Thats about all i was able to find on it myself. I've never noticed i'll effects running a manual ecu or anything so i'm not sure what the deal was.

But yeah, some kind of deadtime compensation for between shifts or something. I couldn't tell you any more really.

 

[Rumbarger]

Yeah, thanks. Glad you guys interjected some of your experience. It sounds like the 14b with the 16g turbine housing would be the best for my bucks, thanks for that technical info about the housings dsm-onster. Also I was pretty in the dark about the auto ecu's effect over the auto tranny, good to hear from sombody that has swapped in m/t ecu, static. Is 13g OEM on 3k TT's or what? Thats weird if they are, right? On a big 6?

 

[staticbrainwash]

Actually stock turbos on 3k's are 9b's. Which are quite literally as effective as hair dryers. 13g's are actually bolt on upgrades for them.

No problem otherwise, if you wanna know anything else about the swap let me know.

 

[Rumbarger]

Lmao. I had no idea 9b's existed, thats crazy. Thanks for the help, the car will be in a holding pattern, probably for a number of months before it sees any real progress, but who knows.

 

[dikdiamond]

Actually stock turbos on 3k's are 9b's. Which are quite literally as effective as hair dryers. 13g's are actually bolt on upgrades for them.

No problem otherwise, if you wanna know anything else about the swap let me know.

Not trying to hijack the thread but I had my own questions about upgrading to a 14/16g in an auto.
1) Do the coolant lines lines need changed? I've read that you do need a bigger size line and that you don't,which is it?
2)Using a 2g manifold,is there any grinding involved of an sort i.e. any clearance issues I need to worry about?
3)Is the manual ecu upgrade necessary at first? Could I go to 450 injectors then get the ecu later?
4)You mentioned the FPR,should that be upgraded to at least the oem manual t/m or is there no difference?

 

[staticbrainwash]

1) I have had zero issues with line from the 13g to the 14b, but i don't know if maybe my lines were changed previously.

2) The same grinding has to be done on a 2g manny on an a/t as for the 1g m/t's. Need to clearance around the PS bracket.

3) YES, YOU NEED THE ECU if you're going to do injectors. ANYTIME you increase injector size you NEED a way to tune them. Or you will run VERY rich off the factory settings.

4) The manual fpr is i believe 37psi fuel, the a/t is 42psi. I didn't bother running the manual fpr because i've read that the little extra pressure isn't that big a deal. And in the long run, a little extra fuel isn't a bad thing. You can push a little more boost, BUT still don't go past the typical 15-16 and MAKE SURE you have a logger when messing with boost.

 

[dikdiamond]

Thanks for the reply! I hope to get my logger by the end of the month,and hope to start gathering up parts little by little after that.

An ecu upgrade was something I never considered until reading this thread,thanks for clearing up my confusion about that. I was going to just go ahead and upgrade I've been constantly reading and searching the forums for answers to any q's I've had about upgrading an a/t turbo but not once have I read anything about the ecu...researching upgrades is part of the fun I've been having with my DSM, kinda like the first time I built my own pc(or,I don't read things closely,which is also possible )

 

[xveganxcowboyx]

1)

4) The manual fpr is i believe 37psi fuel, the a/t is 42psi. I didn't bother running the manual fpr because i've read that the little extra pressure isn't that big a deal. And in the long run, a little extra fuel isn't a bad thing. You can push a little more boost, BUT still don't go past the typical 15-16 and MAKE SURE you have a logger when messing with boost.

Is the auto FPR the same as the N/T? I never knew they were a higher base pressure. Seems like a very odd choice to use smaller injectors, but a higher base fuel pressure.

 

[staticbrainwash]

Well i think i read somewhere that most injectores are matched for flow around 42psi. So 37 psi is actually shorting the 450's a bit on a m/t. I'm not sure about the n/a's though. I'd imagine it's the same as a a/t.

NP, i will help all i can!

 

[dsm-onster]

Guys, keep in mind that running a 43 ps FPR w/ a 37 psi ecu will caouse you to run an even richer fuel curve than stock. That meas during open loop, you're already too conservative fuel curve is now even more conservative. I can tune to 11:1 on pump gas w/ a stock sidemount and otherwise stock setup (except for the piggy back). Car feels incredibly better, too. Peaking out, the 1g runs about 9.5:1 from the factory. So, you don't have to worry about running too lean w/ 13-15 psi if your injector duty cycle is not over 90%. Besides, at a point where the airflow metered causes the ecu to calculate over 100% IDC, fuel cut will occur shortly thereafter. So we can't force our cars to lean out to a good A/F ratio by boosting a little past what our injectors can flow w/ a stock maf or no piggyback.

I'd put you a 37 psi FPR on there and see if you feel difference.

 

[staticbrainwash]

I've got a manual fpr sitting in my garage. I'll put it on and report back.

 

[91vr4evolution]

I had a JDM VR4 auto, in which I removed the broken TD04H and fitted a S16g. The S16g uses a different size water banjo bolts, which requires you to change the pipe from the waterpump pipe, and also use the S16g line that goes to the thermostat housing. It may be possible to ream out the banjos, but in any case you will still need the larger S16g banjo bolts. Both the oil feed and the oil return are the same, though.

What I did was remove the complete auto waterpipe from the waterpump, and fit a JDM VR4 manual waterpump pipe. This has the correct tdo5h banjo line, and also removes the waterline going to the oilfilter. I also fitted a oil filter housing with the oil cooler lines (std on all JDM manual VR4s) and installed an engine oil cooler. I don't know if your US cars have a trans cooler fitted on the turbo A/Ts (JDMs do), but if it doesn't, you should fit one.

I can't remember if the O2 housings are the same or not...I fitted a 3" system that I had laying around, so I never actually checked the compatability of the two housings.

The S16g was great once you were rolling, but the car was very slow off the line. I raced it a couple of times, and the best 60' I got was 2.4! If you intend to keep the car for any decent period of time, then I highly recommend getting a higher stalling convertor, although an E316g should spool a little bit faster than a s16g.

As a sidenote, someone on GalantVR4.org has just run a 10.65 @ 135mph on a stock auto with just a shiftkit and a stock convertor in a full weight VR4, so the auto definitely has potential!

Mike.

 

[dsm-onster]

I had a JDM VR4 auto, in which I removed the broken TD04H and fitted a S16g. The S16g uses a different size water banjo bolts, which requires you to change the pipe from the waterpump pipe, and also use the S16g line that goes to the thermostat housing. It may be possible to ream out the banjos, but in any case you will still need the larger S16g banjo bolts. Both the oil feed and the oil return are the same, though.

What I did was remove the complete auto waterpipe from the waterpump, and fit a JDM VR4 manual waterpump pipe. This has the correct tdo5h banjo line, and also removes the waterline going to the oilfilter. I also fitted a oil filter housing with the oil cooler lines (std on all JDM manual VR4s) and installed an engine oil cooler. I don't know if your US cars have a trans cooler fitted on the turbo A/Ts (JDMs do), but if it doesn't, you should fit one.

I can't remember if the O2 housings are the same or not...I fitted a 3" system that I had laying around, so I never actually checked the compatability of the two housings.

The S16g was great once you were rolling, but the car was very slow off the line. I raced it a couple of times, and the best 60' I got was 2.4! If you intend to keep the car for any decent period of time, then I highly recommend getting a higher stalling convertor, although an E316g should spool a little bit faster than a s16g.

As a sidenote, someone on GalantVR4.org has just run a 10.65 @ 135mph on a stock auto with just a shiftkit and a stock convertor in a full weight VR4, so the auto definitely has potential!

Mike.

Great info. Yea, I think that I heard somewhere about that GVR4 too.

But uh, nope, on the evo3 16g spooling faster than the small 16g. The small 16g has a compressor diameter better matched to the turbine diameter. Its has a smaller compressor for less rotational inertia and has the same exact hotside (turbine and a/r) as the evo3. That's why my small 16g on a bone stock setup spools to 15psi by 2600rpms.

 

[91vr4evolution]

^Umm, okay, I knew about the compressor wheel size difference, but was under the impression the turbine wheel was lighter to compensate for that. Oh well, in any case, for a 16g, small, big or E3, I recommend a higher stall of around 3500rpm (vs around 2500rpm for the stocker)...that should have the car peeling off the line!

Mike.