11.30 @ 117 14b! Quickest AWD no nitrous stock turbo run to date!

[SBstar]

Went out to Milan Dragway last night to see if I could improve on last years outings, see below.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/drag-strip/448100-14b-car-back-out-borrowed-slicks.html

Since then I removed some more weight from the car (along with exhaust removal approximately 100 lbs total), threw in an ACT 4 puck unsprung disc, and had purchased my own M&H 24.5x8.5x15 slicks and put them on some 15x7 Rota Slipstreams. I also found that when turning the boost back up from the 93 tune to E85 I went past my little mark and found boost at 25 psi. Seemed to like it.

My first pass was interesting, cut a 1.52 60' which felt good but hit a wall at 6k rpms, same in 2nd gear, by 3rd gear I knew what was going on so I quick shifted to 4th, then 5th. 11.77@114

I pulled up the computer and saw what I figured. The ecu isn't seeing a speed sensor figure so it's not disabling launch control, effectively placing my rev limit the same as my launch rpm. I could either call it a night and go home to fix it, or I could do something a little crazy. I raised my launch rpm to 6750 so I could shift at 6500.

When I lined her back up I fully expect launching that high was going to leave me with broken parts and stranded at the track. Don't tell my wife that part! But, I was determined to get in a "good" pass. She launched like a bat out of hades! I slammed 2nd, 3rd, 4th, I hardly remember ever looking up from my tachometer. I drove over to the ticket booth and the young kid told me I had to go see "Tony" from Tech.

Timeslip was better then my expectations!

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The quickest an AWD has torched down the 1/4 with the stock turbo! I was ecstatic!

Tony went through the list of safety items I now need. A rollbar, fire jacket, scattershield, driveshaft loop, etc. Then he told me I had three choices, go home, slow down, or pay an extra ten bucks to run No ET so no one else could tell I was "breaking the rules". I told him I'd talk it over with the wife and see what we thought. I wanted to back up the pass, but I also knew there's a reason for safety things and I was already happy with what was accomplished. After talking with my wife I had just started loosening lug nuts to swap back to the streets when a car smacked the wall and did about three flips way up in the air. He ended up ok, mostly due to the full cage in the car. I figured that was confirmation I'd made the right decision to call it a night. After that I was constantly barraged with questions about the car, random strangers kept walking up and wanting to talk about it. Made me feel pretty good about the little DSM. A lot of people with stories about how they owned one in the 90's.

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So I'll be evaluating things from here, start collecting some safety stuff and fix that speed sensor signal. I know that wasn't the cars "best" pass. Believe it or not there was a pretty strong headwind which had people saying their mph's were down. I think a 11.25 is in the cards as it sits, although adding weight back in the car won't help. Either way I'm one happy DSMer right now!

Video:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/feI7yoFjiOc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I have to thank a few people even though I know it's cliché.
My wife, for being my track, video, and support crew. Without her permission nothing is done to this little car!
Phil1320 has been my inspiration for a long time and definitely has provided a ton of useful advice!
NateCrisman who had the quickest awd time of 11.377 in his auto, despite just making a warm-up pass for his nitrous run. We messaged back and forth recently about launching on slicks and the tuning. Thanks man, hope this motivates you to get that car back out!
1qwkfwd (Justin) for providing some fwd inspiration on the 14b and for getting me a good deal on the slicks!
95talongirl, Marybeth, probably doesn't even realize her loaned 2g manifold is still on this thing.
Brian, not a member of this forum but, his carbon fiber hood, stock block, cams, intake, and who knows what else are on the car!
The whole 14b crew, Nathan, Dave (who still has the highest awd 14b mph btw), etc. etc. you guys keep that thread alive and some interest in this little stock turbo.

Better add this one in, obviously I did not back up the pass. So, if I want to truly claim anything I guess I better do that. Fortunately it's not a "record" as Joe Bucci's fwd is still way out in front so I'm not overly concerned about the back up pass aspect of it. But, I don't want to ruffle feathers.

Also a few quick things about the car. Estimated weight with driver is 2500 lbs, 25 psi, 11.8:1 AFR's on E85 straight outta the pump, timing peaks at 18* at/near my 6500 rpm shift points.

 

[Phil1320]

Glad I could help.....only two passes and already 11.30, just as I thought actually.

So, you've snatched that .25 I spoke of earlier in the year.

I think your new goal for 2013, while lofty, should be another .25 secs.

IMO, of course.

 

[danl]

Thats movin! If you still have stock seats you'll loose a couple of lbs when going to a race seat and harness. Get rid of the automatic seatbelt motors. The cage will add a couple lbs, but its part of the game. Are you still on a stock hood? Frank from franks custom hoods made a batch of hoods for us about a year back, that is a great way to loose weight and get you back to where you are at now as far as weight is concerned.

 

[SBstar]

Thats movin! If you still have stock seats you'll loose a couple of lbs when going to a race seat and harness. Get rid of the automatic seatbelt motors. The cage will add a couple lbs, but its part of the game. Are you still on a stock hood? Frank from franks custom hoods made a batch of hoods for us about a year back, that is a great way to loose weight and get you back to where you are at now as far as weight is concerned.

Thanks, the car has a carbon fiber hood, and I'm running a single Summit racing seat with Canadian belts. The big parts to offset the cage/safety parts will probably be a fiberglass/carbon fiber hatch and some lexan. Should be able to equal it all out that way. But, it's also big bucks all the way around, so it's not going to happen quickly. This car also has a bit of rust rot so I'm not sure I want to weld a rollbar into it, might consider searching for another shell believe it or not. That would be a big undertaking to do all this weight removal over again.

 

[danl]

The rust would have to be VERY bad to not allow a cage to be welded into it. I would give it a shot and you can probably even do some rust repair while your at it. At the very worst it is great practice, I know my second and third cages I put into cars were much better than the first. If you do it right you can cut out the main hoop if you decide to go to a different car. That is how I did the current cage in my AWD, I cut it out of my FWD that I sold. Then I just had to purchase 6 plates, the front down tubes, and was able to salvage the reward tubes as they get welded to the shock towers/wheel wells on my setup. It was like $80 in materials from S&W to repurpose the cage into a second car.

Cutting it out is easy, just 5 mins per tube with a cutoff wheel on your angle grinder. Get a sanding wheel to dress up where you cut off for the forward tubes.

If you haven't allready done so, remove as much undercoating under the car as possible (wire wheel on and angle grinder works GREAT). It is neary impossible to weld the plates in as the undercoating catches on fire and the smoke won't allow the shielding gas from the welder to do its job. You'll also need to compleatly remove the gas tank (of course) and blow air through the fuel lines to get out any existing fuel, don't want a fire while welding.

Wear a mask and goggles that seal around your eyes when using the wire wheel on the angle grinder. Even then be prepared to get a few wire wheel chunks in your cheek from time to time. Its like acupucture, but from the car gods. Just don't want one in the eye, that would be a mess.

My "repurposed" cage cut from my fwd and put into my awd:

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EDIT:

I also don't think lightening up the hatch will offset, unfortunatley. The cage is about a 85# hit for mild steel. Also don't forget about the driveshaft loop and scattershield. Also at your ET slick or not you need extended wheel studs. Also belts go out of date every 2 years, so may as well order now because you'll be ordering a new set in jan of 2015 no matter what.

 

[1990AWD]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you only need the roll bar and harness and not a full cage for <11.49? I thought a full cage was only when running <9.99.

 

[SBstar]

Yep, just need a 6 point roll bar for now. No matter what when I do it I'll be going chromoly to save weight.

Thanks for the tips danl! Unfortunately I don't weld, and I know what it can cost to have someone weld one in. So you used the S&W setup, did you like it? I've heard it's just ok for fitment, but as for pre-made kits it seems to be the best.

 

[Bud92gsx]

Whoally F***********K

 

[11secDSM]

Great job Shane!

 

[Jafro]

I now have intense hope for my stock-DSM-turbo'd + stock 10.2:1 NA 6-bolt Hyundai Elantra (used the small chamber 1.6L head). 1.8L NA cams. 1g FWD turbo transmission. The car cost $0 + spare parts. It's running low 13's without tuning capability and with major traction problems. I'm only shooting for 12's on pump. Clearly there is a ton I can learn from you that could help me get there.

I thank your wife for not letting you do anything to the car, and also thank you for posting your experience here.

 

[SBstar]

I now have intense hope for my stock-DSM-turbo'd + stock 10.2:1 NA 6-bolt Hyundai Elantra (used the small chamber 1.6L head). 1.8L NA cams. 1g FWD turbo transmission. The car cost $0 + spare parts. It's running low 13's without tuning capability and with major traction problems. I'm only shooting for 12's on pump. Clearly there is a ton I can learn from you that could help me get there.

I thank your wife for not letting you do anything to the car, and also thank you for posting your experience here.

Sorry I missed your post! Anything I can do to help ya out man. Obviously the biggest and easiest improvement you can make to any car going after 1/4 times is weight reduction. Next in order to reach your goals you'll need to think about traction for that fwd.

 

[iaintmaci]

Shane,
You made me completely rethink swapping out the 14b. No I want to see how far I can push this thing, and still keeping it street legal. I was contemplating a big turbo swap next year, but I am thinking more suspension upgrades and such now. I keep reading on what you have done to the car and think of what I can do to the GSX. Keep up the good work.

Remember, I still owe you a pound of ice cream at the shootout.

 

[1qkfwd]

Shane,
You made me completely rethink swapping out the 14b. No I want to see how far I can push this thing, and still keeping it street legal. I was contemplating a big turbo swap next year, but I am thinking more suspension upgrades and such now. I keep reading on what you have done to the car and think of what I can do to the GSX. Keep up the good work.

Remember, I still owe you a pound of ice cream at the shootout.

Stick with the little guy as long as you can. Its more fun.

 

[95talongirl]

Rust is progressive weight reduction. haha!

Really, awesome job Shane! Would love to see it run.. so going to have to plan a trip back to MI.

 

[SBstar]

Shane,
You made me completely rethink swapping out the 14b. No I want to see how far I can push this thing, and still keeping it street legal. I was contemplating a big turbo swap next year, but I am thinking more suspension upgrades and such now. I keep reading on what you have done to the car and think of what I can do to the GSX. Keep up the good work.

Remember, I still owe you a pound of ice cream at the shootout.

I'm looking forward to that ice cream, but not until after I make a few passes. I can't have that extra weight hanging on! I say stick with the 14b while you collect parts that are going to help on any setup, ie. the suspension stuff, bolt-ons, etc. Honestly I think 12's should be fairly easy even on 93 octane, with minimal weight reduction. My car was comfortable on the street all the way to 12.0.

Stick with the little guy as long as you can. Its more fun.

For sure! More rewarding then slapping on a big turbo like everyone else!

Rust is progressive weight reduction. haha!

Really, awesome job Shane! Would love to see it run.. so going to have to plan a trip back to MI.

I'll let you know once I've got the safety stuff done and I'm planning on heading back to the strip.

 

[doesitonall4rs]

Curious as to why your timing is set at only 18* on E85?

 

[SBstar]

Curious as to why your timing is set at only 18* on E85?

Being conservative. Took out an engine two years ago by being overly aggressive. Last year I ran 11's being extremely conservative, from there I've made small changes in the tune and other changes to the car to see where they get me too. This year the big change I wanted to make was running on the slicks. So I haven't started leaning on the tune at all yet. Leaves me more room to see if there are improvements and lets me know it's safe the entire time as well. I may end up getting on a dyno this year and if I do I may be able to play with the tune and see where it gets me rather then doing it in between 1/4 pulls to look for improvements. I also knew that it was enough timing, being Nate Crisman ran a similar timing map when he ran his 11.37.

 

[YZFR1]

The less timing that your engine needs to make the same power as another, the more efficient it is.

I run only 8* out the top at 30psi with corn/meth. I tried going up as much as 13-14* but all it did is pick up more engine noise.

 

[doesitonall4rs]

I was just curious, All my corn fed cars I run at 21*+ and 30+psi, have yet to loose a motor.

The motor that you lost due to being too aggressive was it on E85?

Its an impressive accomplishment non the less man! I feel like your car will pick up more with more timing!

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

The less timing that your engine needs to make the same power as another, the more efficient it is.

I run only 8* out the top at 30psi with corn/meth. I tried going up as much as 13-14* but all it did is pick up more engine noise.

That's not necessarily true..

Less boost, leaner and more timing making the same power as yours would be an example of an efficient engine.

8 degrees peak advance on E85, which likes more timing to get the flame front moving is just ensuring high EGTs and an incomplete burn.

You are basically running an excess of fuel and air, taking advantage of only some at the cost of several drawbacks.

On pump gas we do this because it is usually the "safe" route, on E85 you want to take advantage of a more aggressive spark and fueling scheme in most cases.

Spark angle is most crucial to torque production as it determines how and when cylinder pressure builds, peaks and then falls off in terms of the optimal rod/crank leverage angles.

 

[1qkfwd]

As low of numbers you guys are throwing out, my 14b timing maps are extremely aggressive. I'm running Q16 as a fuel and feel these maps are more geared for E85. But my timing and mph at the track go hand in hand.


To add: IMHO, the track is the only way to fine tune. You cannot reproduce the track conditions on a dyno. Especially with some of us running ram air intakes. Dyno is good for two things. Dyno queens and getting a baseline tune if it's way outta wack. The fine adjustments between runs is how you get quicker ETs

 

[SBstar]

The less timing that your engine needs to make the same power as another, the more efficient it is.

I run only 8* out the top at 30psi with corn/meth. I tried going up as much as 13-14* but all it did is pick up more engine noise.

There's two thoughts, less timing and more boost, or vice versa. Each person and each setup is going to work differently. Only way to know what is best is too play around with it.

I was just curious, All my corn fed cars I run at 21*+ and 30+psi, have yet to loose a motor.

The motor that you lost due to being too aggressive was it on E85?

Its an impressive accomplishment non the less man! I feel like your car will pick up more with more timing!

Yes, the motor I lost was on e85. I over shimmed the waste gate along with running an aggressive timing map (24-25* plus base timing around 8*). I totally agree that the car will more than likely benefit from more then 18*. Basically when I got the car back together last year I started the tune out extremely conservative wanting to see each gain and keep things safe. I've actually leaned the car out more and added timing since then, as well as more boost. I've seen gains each time I leaned it out and when I added timing. That was done during two track visits. The third trip was on the borrowed qtp's and I wanted to see what the extra traction alone would net me. This first track visit this year was to see what the extra weight loss and my own slicks/wheels would gain me. Unfortunately I didn't get enough passes in to mess with anything other than that. Now, it'll be a waiting game while I get the safety stuff in order. Next time at the track I'll start playing with tuning again.

As low of numbers you guys are throwing out, my 14b timing maps are extremely aggressive. I'm running Q16 as a fuel and feel these maps are more geared for E85. But my timing and mph at the track go hand in hand.


To add: IMHO, the track is the only way to fine tune. You cannot reproduce the track conditions on a dyno. Especially with some of us running ram air intakes. Dyno is good for two things. Dyno queens and getting a baseline tune if it's way outta wack. The fine adjustments between runs is how you get quicker ETs

Hmm, with timing as well as boost there is obviously going to be a point where no further gains come and in fact it can start to work against you. Of course you already know that though. Plus, you had a decent baseline to start working off with. I'd venture to believe you're fine, plus look at your results so far!

So you don't think the dyno would be worth it eh? I may not bother then. Figured it might give me a chance to to move forward tuning, might as well save whatever it would cost for track time instead.

 

[1qkfwd]

At the track I do hit a point where boost or timing shows no gains in mph. When I hit the dead spot I move to another area of the car that might need attention. If there is nothin that I can see, I try to improve shift points and 60' times and leave the tune alone. When I get home I look over everything to see what the cars gonna benefit from the most.

In your case you need a roll cage and safety stuff before you can even hit the track again. Put the dyno money towards that and get back to the track and see what else you can improve on there. You did only get one good run. See if you can improve what ya got already first. Those are just my thoughts on it all. I think your doing a great job on keeping a conservative tune and playing with other things. That's what I've done. Until last race, I just started leaning out my afr's from mid 11s. That's not counting Sacramento track though.

 

[Phil1320]

Would be nice to see what your car puts down, say in comparison to my 295 hp 337 tq on Dynojet and Dave's 324 on Mustang. Maybe just do like the $75 for three pulls, no tuning time or anything.....

 

[1qkfwd]

Would be nice to see what your car puts down, say in comparison to my 295 hp 337 tq on Dynojet and Dave's 324 on Mustang. Maybe just do like the $75 for three pulls, no tuning time or anything.....

Now that's another good use for the dyno. Well at least for comparison sakes. I might go after tomorrows race to see what it lays down in track form. I just won't adjust anything.