07 NASA TT rules are out.

[eclipse2via]

http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=12324&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=40

http://www.shedracing.net/tt_rules07--v4.2.pdf

Maybe I should TT my Evo and daily drive my Eclipse

 

[Ludachris]

Just when they come out with a class that looks to cater to us, they go and change the rules to prohibit boost controllers? Sounds like the easy way out to appease the N/A guys... Guess we should all go out and buy N/A cars if we want to get into TT, or just stick to drag racing. This could throw a pretty big wrench in my plans...

 

[prostreetdsmx1]

can you get away with aftermarket actuators?

 

[Quasimondo]

There's always the TT-R class:

6.4.2, Paragraph 2

"Any competitor wishing to drive without a certified Dyno report will compete in the TTR class."

6.2.1 TTR Eligibility

"Any four wheel racecar or production vehicle that passes NASA safety technical inspection can be used to compete in TTR (note: open wheel formula cars are not permitted). There are no maximum power limits or minimum weight limits. Any type and size tires may be used. All types of transmissions, chassis frames, suspensions, aerodynamic modifications, and braking systems are legal. Roll cage modifications are unlimited, as long as they pass NASA safety technical inspection. Any type of performance modification is permitted."

 

[Caithness]

I don't think that prohibits boost controllers. It still lists a simple +4 points for a boost controller father down in the document. Unless I'm missing something here?

 

[stealthTT]

They simply want to be able to make sure you aren't making more horsepower than you claimed when you were re-classed for the turbo modification. You guys are reading too much into it. Take it at face value for what they intended. They don't want you to cheat.

Don't have anything that can be switched from the cockpit that'll allow you to run more boost (or someother horsepower increasing method). They want to be able to have you drive directly from the track to the dyno and test your on-track horsepower. It's a way for you to cheat and they want to close all of the loopholes, because somebody would claim it's a gray area.


Note: If you still want to run a high/lo boost controller for the longevity of the motor, then claim the high boost setting's horsepower when you submit your car for re-classification.

 

[eclipse2via]

Anyone have insight into where the non OEM turbo with a sane power:weight is going to fall? Say a 10:1?

Are they really going to do a case by case basis with the regional director ruling?

 

[Evan K.]

They simply want to be able to make sure you aren't making more horsepower than you claimed when you were re-classed for the turbo modification. You guys are reading too much into it. Take it at face value for what they intended. They don't want you to cheat.

Don't have anything that can be switched from the cockpit that'll allow you to run more boost (or someother horsepower increasing method). They want to be able to have you drive directly from the track to the dyno and test your on-track horsepower. It's a way for you to cheat and they want to close all of the loopholes, because somebody would claim it's a gray area.


Note: If you still want to run a high/lo boost controller for the longevity of the motor, then claim the high boost setting's horsepower when you submit your car for re-classification.

I agree. I don't see the issue myself.

 

[Evan K.]

Anyone have insight into where the non OEM turbo with a sane power:weight is going to fall? Say a 10:1?

Are they really going to do a case by case basis with the regional director ruling?

I am unclear what you are asking? Are you looking for a turbo that will have a sweet spot around your 10:1 ratio which I assume is ~300 hp?

 

[eclipse2via]

I am unclear what you are asking? Are you looking for a turbo that will have a sweet spot around your 10:1 ratio which I assume is ~300 hp?

No I misunderstood the classing basis from what I had read on the other TT thread. I wouldn't look nearly as bad as I thought I would. But I don't think I'm going to be doing any TT this year.

I have a dual BB turbo with a 20G sized output. Spools like a B16G.

 

[Ludachris]

They simply want to be able to make sure you aren't making more horsepower than you claimed when you were re-classed for the turbo modification. You guys are reading too much into it. Take it at face value for what they intended. They don't want you to cheat.

Don't have anything that can be switched from the cockpit that'll allow you to run more boost (or someother horsepower increasing method). They want to be able to have you drive directly from the track to the dyno and test your on-track horsepower. It's a way for you to cheat and they want to close all of the loopholes, because somebody would claim it's a gray area.


Note: If you still want to run a high/lo boost controller for the longevity of the motor, then claim the high boost setting's horsepower when you submit your car for re-classification.

Maybe I was reading too much into it. Hopefully you're right.

 

[drivemusicnow]

They seem pretty fair, but very very open ended. In the end, anyone with an aftermarket turbo is done by a dyno test, and there is no specific classing for TTF-TTA for the "adjusted weight/power ratio".

I'm not sure if the directors have specific limits that they are going to be looking for, but I guess I'm going to talk to the Midwest director and see what happens.

 

[stealthTT]

6.4.1
"1)Engine swap: All engine swaps must be evaluated for new base classification by
the National TT Director on an individual basis, unless a base class for
the particular swap is listed above in 6.3 Base Classifications or in Appendix A. The
following factors will be taken into account in classing the car: wt./hp ratio, total weight,
high torque in the usable rpm range, body style, engine location, drivetrain type, advanced
technology/engineering in OEM suspension, brakes, drivetrain, and aerodynamics, and dry
sumps (if engine is lowered). Competitors should submit all of the above data to the
National TT Director with the request for re-classification of the vehicle. Many engine
swaps will require chassis dynamometer testing of the competition-ready vehicle and
submittal of the minimum competition weight chosen by the competitor.

3)Non-OEM turbo or supercharger, or upgraded or modified turbo/supercharger: engine swap rules apply—all OEM naturally aspirated vehicles that have been upgraded to forced
induction and forced induction vehicles with an upgraded turbo or supercharger must be
evaluated by the National TT Director on an individual basis for new base classification
based on chassis dynamometer testing and actual vehicle weight as in 1) above and in
Section 6.4.2 Dyno Testing Procedures—TTS/TTU, Motor Swaps, Forced Induction,
Hybrids."

6.4.2
"The owner/driver must submit a certified dynamometer (Dyno) report, and the minimum
competition weight of the vehicle (with driver) to the National TT Director prior to the car’s first competition in order to compete in TTS, TTU, or to be assigned a new A-H base class (for those cars requiring re-classification)."

So that reads pretty clearly that turbo upgrades will be re-classed only by weight to horsepower ratio. I'm really surprised they didn't publish the weight to power ratio limit for each class.

As the rules are written, it looks likey they are not going re-class by the other important factors (weight being a big one!) that they use for engine swaps:
total weight, high torque in the usable rpm range, body style, engine location, drivetrain type, advanced technology/engineering in OEM suspension, brakes, drivetrain, and aerodynamics, and dry sumps (if engine is lowered).

They seem pretty fair, but very very open ended. In the end, anyone with an aftermarket turbo is done by a dyno test, and there is no specific classing for TTF-TTA for the "adjusted weight/power ratio".

I'm not sure if the directors have specific limits that they are going to be looking for, but I guess I'm going to talk to the Midwest director and see what happens.

Please share what you get for an answer. We're not able to plan for next year yet, let alone buy parts, install, tune, dyno, and then shakedown the car before the first race next April.

 

[drivemusicnow]

6.4.1
"1)Engine swap: All engine swaps must be evaluated for new base classification by
the National TT Director on an individual basis, unless a base class for
the particular swap is listed above in 6.3 Base Classifications or in Appendix A. The
following factors will be taken into account in classing the car: wt./hp ratio, total weight,
high torque in the usable rpm range, body style, engine location, drivetrain type, advanced
technology/engineering in OEM suspension, brakes, drivetrain, and aerodynamics, and dry
sumps (if engine is lowered). Competitors should submit all of the above data to the
National TT Director with the request for re-classification of the vehicle. Many engine
swaps will require chassis dynamometer testing of the competition-ready vehicle and
submittal of the minimum competition weight chosen by the competitor.

3)Non-OEM turbo or supercharger, or upgraded or modified turbo/supercharger: engine swap rules apply—all OEM naturally aspirated vehicles that have been upgraded to forced
induction and forced induction vehicles with an upgraded turbo or supercharger must be
evaluated by the National TT Director on an individual basis for new base classification
based on chassis dynamometer testing and actual vehicle weight as in 1) above and in
Section 6.4.2 Dyno Testing Procedures—TTS/TTU, Motor Swaps, Forced Induction,
Hybrids."

6.4.2
"The owner/driver must submit a certified dynamometer (Dyno) report, and the minimum
competition weight of the vehicle (with driver) to the National TT Director prior to the car’s first competition in order to compete in TTS, TTU, or to be assigned a new A-H base class (for those cars requiring re-classification)."

So that reads pretty clearly that turbo upgrades will be re-classed only by weight to horsepower ratio. I'm really surprised they didn't publish the weight to power ratio limit for each class.

As the rules are written, it looks likey they are not going re-class by the other important factors (weight being a big one!) that they use for engine swaps:
total weight, high torque in the usable rpm range, body style, engine location, drivetrain type, advanced technology/engineering in OEM suspension, brakes, drivetrain, and aerodynamics, and dry sumps (if engine is lowered).



Please share what you get for an answer. We're not able to plan for next year yet, let alone buy parts, install, tune, dyno, and then shakedown the car before the first race next April.

What I EXPECT to happen is that with the engine swap/turbo upgrade is either:

A) they give you a new base class, but your OEM weight and suspension/safety/tire points still add on to that base class
or
B) The give you a "package" engine points number. for example, with your mods/power/weight, we assign 48 points for all of your engine parts, and go from there.

 

[Caithness]

Seems like they've covered bases on exploiting the hp/wt classing. Can't just tune your way to a flat hp curve across the board without any penalty. Wonder what they'll do if you show up with a car that makes XXX (class limit) hp from 3500 to 7500.

 

[stealthTT]

Seems like they've covered bases on exploiting the hp/wt classing. Can't just tune your way to a flat hp curve across the board without any penalty. Wonder what they'll do if you show up with a car that makes XXX (class limit) hp from 3500 to 7500.

Well according to rule 3) they are going to use chassis dynometer results and weight. The rules are ambigous enough they may or may not apply torque in the useable rpm range as in rule 1) for engine swaps.

 

[drivemusicnow]

Well, the new rules have made me happy that i've stayed with the 2.3 liter instead of a 2.4 (aka engine swap) but we'll see.

The one GIANT loophole I see is RPM range. IF you dyno your car from 2K to 6.5k as marked as the redline on your stock tach, and produce 350hp, but then during the race rev up to 8500 RPM (where you are actually making 400 horsepower) there really isn't anything written in the rules to dissallow this. Everyone would know that it SHOULD be illegal, but I don't see any way to really inforce it.

 

[stealthTT]

Well, the new rules have made me happy that i've stayed with the 2.3 liter instead of a 2.4 (aka engine swap) but we'll see.

The one GIANT loophole I see is RPM range. IF you dyno your car from 2K to 6.5k as marked as the redline on your stock tach, and produce 350hp, but then during the race rev up to 8500 RPM (where you are actually making 400 horsepower) there really isn't anything written in the rules to dissallow this. Everyone would know that it SHOULD be illegal, but I don't see any way to really inforce it.

Oh man! Don't give them ideas. If you're tested, they'll have the dyno operator rev your car out till it hits the rev limiter.

But......I wonder if they'd believe my car only revs to 4000rpm. I could make my own tachometer background with a......ahem.....new redline at 4000.

 

[mavisky]

I'll be finding the nearest Dyno Dynamics dynamometer, and for god's sakes, don't put your car on a dynojet, or ego-jet as their more commonly known.

 

[stealthTT]

I'll be finding the nearest Dyno Dynamics dynamometer, and for god's sakes, don't put your car on a dynojet, or ego-jet as their more commonly known.

Unfortunately:

Section 6.4.2
"As AWD Dyno availability is limited, NASA Officials may use any of the three AWD Dynos listed above. AWD drivers need to be especially careful that their cars will be compliant on any official Dyno that is available."

So you have to either dyno with a dyno-jet or use a multiplier to guess what a dyno-jet might say your horsepower is.

 

[mavisky]

Oh, I hadn't read through them all the way, I guess us fwd guys are forced to dyno only on Dynojets then?

 

[Slow old poop]

I can't figure out what they are going to do with the dyno results. I posted a question on the NASA forum, but -- more than 24 hours later -- they haven't answered it. As it is right now, I am barely in TTB when I add up all my points except those for my 20G turbo.

Using the maximum hp/wt ratio allowed, at 3270 lb I am allowed to run up to 375 hp.

I know that if I dyno OVER 375 it's off to TTS or TTR. But they don't tell me what happens if the dyno sheet reads UNDER 375. Am I in TTB?

If they assess 48 points total for all engine mods, it would kick me up into TTA.
If they come up with some sort of sliding scale for hp, I'll probably tune the car with hp or weight or by removing some mods to stay in TTB (who needs a rear strut brace, anyway?). Problem is, I don't know what they plan to do with the dyno results, and they ain't talking.

Like StealthTT says, it makes it hard to order stuff for next year, like tires. There's a 5 point difference between Toyos and Hoosiers, and that might jump me a class.

I wish they would make up their minds and explain the dyno results rule, so we can do a little planning for next year.

Rich

 

[stealthTT]

So what do we have in the Midwest for AWD dynos besides these?

AMS - Chicago - Dyno-Jet (NASA standard) - $125 per hour, $225 w/tuning
LSE Performance - Minnesota - Dyno Dynamics - $120, $150 w/tuning
Genesis Racing Development - Chicago - Dyno Pack - $150, $200 w/tuning (not a Mitsubishi shop)

 

[drivemusicnow]

Bahh, second time i'm typing all of this out:

Buschur Racing, Mustang Dyno, 100$ an hour Wakeman Ohio

Chicago Performance Tuning, 150$ an hour Dyno Dynamics
http://www.gocpt.com/dyno.htm

P&L motorsports Franklin Park IL, 120$ an hour, Dynojet
http://www.pandlmotorsports.com/facility.htm

Payn Technologies in Troy, MI 150$ an hour, some type of Inertia dyno (mustang?)
http://www.payntechnologies.com/services/dyno.html

Diemann motorsports, near kansas city, Mustang dyno, ask for prices
http://diemanmotorsports.com/tuning/dyno

there are some others, but I'm done for right now.

 

[stealthTT]

Buschur Racing in Wakeman Ohio, mustang dyno, 100$ an hour
P&L motorsports Franklin Park IL, Dynojet dyno, 120$ an hour (http://www.pandlmotorsports.com/facility.htm)
Payn Technologies Troy Mi, 150$ an hour, and some type of inertia dyno (http://www.payntechnologies.com/services/dyno.html)

basically you Iowa people are screwed.

I can't find another one I know about in IL that does mostly Audi and VW stuff, but they have an AWD dyno... can't remember the shop name though.

Yeah, Iowa has no import tuner shops. I don't think there's enough interest (money) to support one. People have tried, but they didn't last long.

I think the Audi & VW shop you're thinking of is Genesis Racing Development (GRD). I believe they used to specialize in those cars, but have now branched out into Subarus and Nissans.
http://www.grdperformance.com/