1G Wining sound from driver-side of engine above 3000rpm..?

[90gst_sean]

Hello and let me say THANK YOU for taking AN interest in my most recent car trouble; let me also warn you that the post you are about to read is rather long and will get longer as I add UPDATES containing the relative info from member contributions and my own trial and error diagnosis.

I will organize this thread as well as possible in order to ease the burden of your reading though so much info. I will denote ITEMS OF ELIMINATION with the " ## " character as I work my way through my process of elimination so we don't cover things more than needed. I will denote information of importance with the " - " character, and questions needing an answer will have QUESTION near them.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK, LETS GET STARTED.

!!My Profile is detailed and up to date!!

If you simply like to read a lot- read on; if you've had phantom knock issues and fixed them- read on; if you've had timing belt issues involving noise- please read on; if you consider yourself a true DSMer or would just like to help one- please take a few moments and give my long a$$ thread a read & see if there's anything you can add. Thanks
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Over the last few thousand miles I've noticed a wining sound coming from the timing belt area of my engine. At first it was no big deal because it would go away quick once the engine warmed up. However, now that the sound have gotten louder, still not really loud and doesn't scream "something is wrong", my knock sensor is picking up noise and is causing problems of its own. I fear the issue is getting worse.

- The sound is ONLY audible at or around 3000rpm's and above.

- The sound goes away once the car has been warmed up for a long time. The sound used to go away quick, about 10 minutes after warmed up, but recently things have seemed worse and the sound takes longer to go away completely; goes away after about 20-25 minutes of warm driving. Sometimes the sound just stays quiet in the back ground engine noise within the higher rpms, now.

- If I drive under 3k rpm there is NO wine and NO ill driving condition associated with the noise. I had first written the sound off as noisy oil pump gear teeth as the front case is relatively new; about 15,000 miles and manufactured by ITM I believe. This could still be the cause.

- Knock sensor is now causing some serious headache and if I didn't have dsmlink to control its output the car might be underivable due to extreme knock retard -- the knock sensor has about 20,000 miles on it manufactured by an Auto Zone source which seems to be OEM as it has Mitsubishi and a Mitsu part number on the sensor (not 100% however).

- The knock has gotten to the point of registering when free revving the engine in neutral. QUESTION: Is this normal? This may mean this is not real knock and is a vibration (confirm please).

- I've tried to narrow the sound down using a stethoscope and believe it is coming from the engine itself, although I was hoping it was the power steering pump. I do pick up some similar noise from the alternator, but I have recently swapped a dead alt. for a junk yard spare and the noise continued.

- The timing belt is Kevlar because I broke on a while back; this could be important. The belt have about 10,000 miles and looks good.

- I replaced the timing equipment after breaking the other belt using ITM pulleys and a OEM tensioner. Maybe one on the pulleys has failed of a bolt has come loose.

- I do not notice any rubbing damage from a pulley trying to work its way through the timing cover, but I am not convinced until I pull the covers someday soon.

- The engine lower end is fresh, about 20,000 miles. I recently pulled the oil pan and visually inspected the underside. I am running 2G pistons on 1G rods and compression as of 2000 miles ago were +/- 5 psi of brand new OR around 190psi if my memory serves; I can't seem to find my notebook at the moment. REMEMBER, 2G PISTONS IN MY 6BLT.

- The noise seemed to get louder after pulling the oil pan (on an AWD this includes: Transfer case, Center Cross Member, Turbo Oil Return, Lower Tranny Sheet-Metal Cover, dropping the Drive Shaft and disconnecting the two bolts that support the driver side CV Shaft - removing these two bolts and getting at the oil pan bolts would cause the CV Seal to leak a little until I move the CV Shaft back into place; there is no residual leak however).

- The only real un-rebuilt component in the system (car) is the cylinder head, due to the old timing belt breakage. The current cyl. head was surfaced and pressure tested and then put into service completely stock from the spare parts bin. It was a 6blt n/a, so I reused my old cams.

- One of the lash adjusters could have failed causing vibrations, however unlikely the cause of my knock. QUESTION Has lifter tick ever been known to register on a knock sensor?

Well that's all I can think of at the moment, I'll attempt to refine things as I go. Maybe I can recored a video of the sound. I'll also swap out the knock sensor with a used one from the parts bin soon and report back. UPDATE: Knock sensor is good.

I have a bad feeling something is about to happen to the car...

Thanks for any help!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
UPDATE: 07-01-10
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
## I have verified that the sound is not coming from a loose accessory belt

- I have a new knock sensor on order

## The top timing cover is not rubbing; I'm going to have to pull the lower covers and I know I'm going to hate every minute of it too.

## I have verified that the sound is not coming from the turbo by use of the stereoscope. The turbo is easy to check with a scope because it is easy to get to and is all alone.

- I think I'll pull the valve cover and look at the rockers... I doubt I'll find the issue, but I really don't want to pull the timing covers, so...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
UPDATE: 07-02-10
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- OK, I swapped out my old (20,000 mile) knock sensor, and surprise, surprise... it's not the knock sensor! I didn't think it was going to be a bad sensor, but I was hoping it would be because it's an easy fix. Oh well, I returned the sensor and am moving on.

I just wanted to remind everyone (or anyone!!) that my knock sensor is picking up 'knock' during a free-rev with the car in neutral. From what I understand of knock, this is likely not going to be true detonation, it's likely a vibration, squeal, squeak, wine or dsm demons messing with my head.

## My knock sensor is not malfunctioning and is in good working order.

 

[BLINKY619]

Hello,

Over the last few thousand miles I've noticed a wining sound coming from the timing belt area of my engine.

- The sound is ONLY audible at or around 3000rpm's and above.

- The sound goes away once the car has been warmed up for a long time. The sound used to go away quicker, about 10 minutes after the car warmed up, but recently things have seemed to get worse and the sound takes longer to go away completely; about 20-25 minutes of warm driving.

- for the first 4000 miles after I noticed the sound it was of little more that an annoyance because it would go away quick, I could drive under 3k rpm, and there was NO driving condition associated with the noise. I had first written the sound off as noisy oil pump gear teeth as the front case is relatively new; about 15,000 miles and manufactured by ITM I believe.

- Until this day I'm still convinced there is no ill driving affect due to this noise, however my knock sensor is now causing some serious headache and if I didn't have dsmlink to control its output the car might be underivable due to extreme knock retard -- the knock sensor has about 20,000 miles on it manufactured by an Auto Zone source.

- The knock has gotten to the point of registering anywhere from a few counts of retard to 7 or 8 degrees when free revving the engine in neutral. QUESTION: Is this normal?

- I've tried to narrow the sound down using a stethoscope and believe it is coming from the engine itself, although I was hoping it was the power steering pump. I do pick up some similar noise from the alternator, but I have recently swapped a dead alt. for a junk yard spare and the noise continued.

- The timing belt is Kevlar because I broke on a while back; this could be important. The belt have about 10,000 miles and looks good.

- I replaced the timing equipment after breaking the other belt using ITM pulleys and a OEM tensioner. Maybe one on the pulleys has failed of a bolt has come loose.

- I do not notice any rubbing damage from a pulley trying to work its way through the timing cover, but I am not convinced until I pull the covers someday soon.

- The engine lower end is fresh, about 20,000 miles. I recently pulled the oil pan and visually inspected the underside. I am running 2G pistons on 1G rods and compression as of 2000 miles ago were +/- 5 psi of brand new OR around 190psi if my memory serves; I can't seem to find my notebook at the moment. REMEMBER, 2G PISTONS IN MY 6BLT.

- The un-rebuilt component in the system is the cylinder head due to the old timing belt breakage. The current head was surfaced and pressure tested and then put into service completely stock from the spare parts bin. It was a 6blt n/a, so I reused my old cams.

Well that's all I can think of at the moment, I'll attempt to refine everything later. Maybe I can recored a video with sound of the wining. I'll also swap out the knock sensor with a used one from the parts bin soon and report back.

I have a bad feeling something is about to happen to the car... but, this feeling has become normal whenever I'm forced to daily drive my dsm.

Thanks for any help!

ok first off make sure your timing belt isnt rubbing against both timing cover... second check the tension on your timing belt...!!!!

 

[pj91gsx]

sounds like turbo bearings, it goes away when it warms up because the clearances are looser at the colder temperatures. Its not good to beat on the car till its up to operating temps. More wear on the motor parts occur when you abuse the car when its cold, which means more likely for the turbo to go, or rod bearings.

 

[90gst_sean]

UPDATE: 07-01-10

## I have verified that the sound is not coming from a loose accessory belt

## I have a new knock sensor on order

## The top timing cover is not rubbing; I'm going to have to pull the lower covers and I know i'm going to hate every minute of it too.

## I have verified that the sound is not coming from the turbo by use of the stereoscope. The turbo is easy to check with a scope because it is easy to get to and is all alone.

- I think I'll pull the valve cover and look at the rockers... I doubt I'll find the issue, but I really don't want to pull the timing covers, so...

QUESTION: Is there anything that our engine does specific at 3000 rpms that could explain the perfection at which this noise starts at?

 

[pj91gsx]

UPDATE: 07-01-10

- I have verified that the sound is not coming from a loose accessory belt

- I have a new knock sensor on order

- The top timing cover is not rubbing; I'm going to have to pull the lower covers and I know i'm going to hate every minute of it too.

- I have verified that the sound is not coming from the turbo by use of the stereoscope. The turbo is easy to check with a scope because it is easy to get to and is all alone.

- I think I'll pull the valve cover and look at the rockers... I doubt I'll find the issue, but I really don't want to pull the timing covers, so...

QUESTION: Is there anything that our engine does specific at 3000 rpms that could explain the perfection at which this noise starts at?

yes!! i was right wheres my rep points!! There can be a problem if you have a 7 bolt head on a 1g block with arp headstuds. its blocks off the majority of the oil pressure to the cylinder head, which leads to the turbo being the first thing to go. To identify your head as a 7 bolt head, it will have bigger exhaust studs on that hold the end on the manifold on. or your turbo could just need bearings.

 

[90gst_sean]

yes!! i was right wheres my rep points!! There can be a problem if you have a 7 bolt head on a 1g block with arp headstuds. its blocks off the majority of the oil pressure to the cylinder head, which leads to the turbo being the first thing to go. To identify your head as a 7 bolt head, it will have bigger exhaust studs on that hold the end on the manifold on. or your turbo could just need bearings.

Sorry, but I'm a little confused by your post; have you figured out what is the cause of my wining sound? Q

- I'm not running a 7 bolt cylinder head but I will check the model number to be 100% sure that I didn't end up with one some how through an act of god or something...

- I really don't believe the problem is my turbo (35,000 mile old E316G, I purchased new from SBR half a decade ago). However, I would be open to checking it for damage somehow if anyone have a suggestion for me. Thank you.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
UPDATE: 07-02-10
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK, I swapped out my old (20,000 mile) knock sensor, and surprise, surprise... it's not the knock sensor! I didn't think it was going to be a bad sensor, but I was hoping it would be because it's an easy fix. Oh well, I returned the sensor and am moving on.

I just wanted to remind everyone (or anyone!!) that my knock sensor is picking up 'knock' during a free-rev with the car in neutral. From what I understand of knock, this is likely not going to be true detonation, it's likely a vibration, squeal, squeak, wine or dsm demons messing with my head.

## My knock sensor is not malfunctioning and is in good working order.

 

[SrKegler]

I'm just guessing, but 3000 rpm is just about where the balance shafts start to cancel out the vibrations from the motor. After you've checked everything else out, check them.

 

[90gst_sean]

I'm just guessing, but 3000 rpm is just about where the balance shafts start to cancel out the vibrations from the motor. After you've checked everything else out, check them.

Thanks SrKegler for the help!

- My Balancing Shafts were removed two engine pulls ago with the help off a machine shop (they had my block).

This still could be a good direction to look in tho.

- I'll look to make sure all my Balancing Deletion stuff is in good shape. I looked it over from underneath when the oil pan was off, but didn't see anything out of place.

Thanks for the help and keep the ideas coming, even if they're only guesses, you may get lucky or get me looking in a new direction. I need to catch this vibration before something comes apare and causes unnecessary damage.

QUESTION: I'm wondering if an exhaust leak, say a large one at the turbo to exhaust manifold due to a stripped turbo bolt hole, could cause some serious part throttle knock?

 

[nando]

I get the same noise when i first start my car, its like an electrical whine noise, it goes away after its warmed up, it still drives normal with the whine and without...so i thought it was just normal..? But i will keep my eye on this thread.

 

[jp1601]

I get the same noise when i first start my car, its like an electrical whine noise, it goes away after its warmed up, it still drives normal with the whine and without...so i thought it was just normal..? But i will keep my eye on this thread.

same that happened to mine, please help him, it might be the same as mine.

 

[smrogers5771]

I have the same issue.... I have a confirmed 6bolt block with a 7bolt head and while the car is running had the hood popped and the cams or timing belt sounds like it whines.... I duno what to make of it and the belt hasnt snapped or "walked" yet or i duno what to say.....

 

[inthemidst]

I have the same noise and it's a vibration noise I pinpointed to the timing belt tensioner pulley I tried 3 different pulleys and none of them had play and the noise still didn't go away . My theory is when you delete the balance shafts all the vibrations go to that pulley.and I used a stethoscope to find the noise.