What now....

[Mim]

Hey guys,

Still having issues with this 95 2.0 n/t.

Since the new head, it's been running horribly. If youve been following my posts you will see. NOW... yesterday it wouldn't start. I have a stripped screw hole for the thermostat housing so the thing sprays antifreeze all over the engine... still trying to figure that out without replacing the housing because that means removing alot..

ANYWAY, I got it started for a few min yesterday and it ran horribly. Idled funny and acted like it was missing or something. Parked it and it wouldnt start again. So I have been messing around with it. Threw code for failure with coil pack B, so I changed the thing. I think I fried my coil with the radiator fluid spraying everywhere.. I can see the tanish orangeish wire coming off the pack has a slight cut in it with exposed wire.... (once i replaced the coil pack, it stopped throwing the code)

After changing it swapping out wires, the car starts but runs like crap. White smoke out the exhaust and the pipe itself is shaking. To add to all of this wonderfullness spark plugs 1-3 are wet with gas but 4 is dry as a bone. I'm banging my head against a wall here. Please help!!

*Edit*

Now it is making a clicking noise that sounds like it is coming from the first cylinder right in front of the thermostat housing... I am going to put up a video here in a second.

 

[scott90gsx420]

Check your fuel injectors that could be the issue with some looking wet and some not. But im willing to bet its not gas thats making them wet. It is more than likely a bad head-gasket seal thats causing them to get wet with coolant. Im saying that because 1)your blowing white smoke which is due to burning antifreeze and water.2) you said you just put a new head on and3)is its running like crap. Do a compression test i garentee you will find your problem to be a head-gasket.
If you didn't torque the head down the right way or if you didn't go threw and re-torque them after you drove the car for 50-100miles that can cause the headgasket to go bad. Or if you didn't have the head resurfaced properly it will also lead to these issues. Post i vid. so we can hear it and make sure you record some of the smoking so we can see if it is acctuall white or not(not saying your color blind but sometimes its hard to tell.)
As for your therostat housing just take it apart and fix it the right way there is no need to cheap on something you could pick up for 5bucks at a junkyard. Or are you saying the bolt that goes into the block is stripped?

 

[Mim]

Uploading videos now. I didn't re-torque the head.. no idea I had to. One vid will be kind of repetitive because I recorded it first but it wasn't complected. (The only reason I am going to post it is because it shows this clicking noise). The plugs are definitely wet w fuel.. I can smell it on 1, 2, and 3.. but 4 is dry and doesn't smell like gas at all. They are all firing and if I pull any of them while the car is running, (wires) it acts different. Ill post the vids asap. I am about to take it back to the shop that put it all together for me and let them have at it. If it's a head related issue, they are responsible... if not... well... I don't have the cash to pay them right now so let's hope its head related (not really.. that would piss me off)

By the way, it's the motor side thermo housing which would involve me removing quite a few things to get it off. (Motor mount, jacking engine up, pulling other stuff...) You may be right by doing it the correct way, but if I can just use something to act as a seal and hold the bolt tight so the gasket seals correctly... that would be ideal.

 

[scott90gsx420]

Ya you absolutely have to re torque it. If the problem randomly started then id bet its because it didn't get done. If it was happening the whole time after you got it back then id bet they didn't resurface it or torque it in the proper manner. Its a head problem like 90% sure about that i doubt youv got a cracked block, but it is possible.
Did the problem just appear while driving or did it do it the whole time after it was built a bit more info. on how it started will help solve it. Im willing to bet theyll yank you around. Just stick to it and don't let them pull one on you. And once they give in make sure you tell them that the head does have to be re-torqued after mild amount of driving like 50 miles or so. and that they resurface it.
As for your thermo. housing you might be able to attack it with some rvt sealer but i don't think it will work. Id be willing to bet your going to have to take it apart. Which another thing that comes to mind is was your car overheating? Tends to happen when youv got leaking coolant passages and if you were OH it would tear up the head-gasket.
If it is positively gas on the plugs maby your injectors are stuck open. But id look into like a bad fpr.

 

[Cold Chill]

If your getting a lot of water in the cylinder then all the gas may not be burning. If your spark plugs look steam cleaned or you have white smoke or both then its probly the head gasket.

 

[Mim]

Ok, I finally got the vids uploaded and I will post them below. To answer the above questions...

When I first got the car back it ran.. OK... i had a rough idle and the mechanic told me that was due to the new gasket. Needed to build up carbon. SO... I drove it for a day (literally). Home and then to work. Left work and went to the petrol station and it wouldn't start... Took it back to the mechanic and it sat there for about a month. I went and checked on it from time to time and replaced things like the coil pack, crank and cam sensors, plugs and wires.. I wasn't getting fuel or spark. He insisted that I needed a new ECU. Problem was that I couldn't afford one and couldn't find one at the junk yard... so i eventually had him tow it to me and it sat until I found an ECU. Once I got that in, I got spark but no fuel. Keeping in mind that the car sat for quite some time with an eighth or so of gas in the tank, I replaced the fuel pump and filter. Then I got fuel to the line. That was a couple weeks ago. Once I got it started, it had a rough idle, it hesitated to go from a dead stop (almost dies.. have to rev it up and ease off the clutch at about 2-3k rpms), and when you DO get going, it jerks you when you let off the gas or try to accelerate. (I found one day that if I started it and went, so long as I didnt let it idle, I didnt have this problem until the car started to warm up even ever so slightly) For that matter, when you try to accelerate, you put your foot on the gas and it does nothing for about 2 seconds then it catches and jerks you forward. There is no steady speed with it because of that.. you are either slowing down or speeding up.. I replaced the MAP (thats the code it was throwing. That and the AIC and running lean on bank 1) and put on 3 different throttle bodies (they have the AIC and TPS on them). All that said, it never seems to act the same. Every day is different. For the past week, I got the idle issue taken care of ( I THINK me taking off and cleaning out the EGR fixed that because I am not throwing the MAP code anymore.. it was clogged with carbon) but the hesitation and jerking were still present. I drove it because I have to but yesterday, the rest of this became an issue. I bought a throttle body gasket and a thermostat gasket because all the had was silicon and after I put them on it ran like crap and then wouldn't start again.

The rest you will see in the vids.

YouTube - rough idle

YouTube - Clicking noise?
(this one says alot of what the next two say but it has the clicking noise. The next two are more informative)

YouTube - 2G eclipse problems P.1

YouTube - April 4, 2011 3:46 PM

I thought the FPR was the culprit as well, but I can't figure out how to get it off the fuel line. All of the tut's I found have a diff FPR than me. They all have two screws that you take off and then it comes out but mine is set into the end of the fuel rail and I can't figure out how to get it off... I can pull the vacuum line and no gas spits out so from what I have read it isn't punctured or anything but that still doesn't tell me its good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CfQpEOg_lg

On a side note, it's not blowing white smoke anymore but it also has no more antifreeze in it either...

Im going to go check the oil again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xv3dvRHgZo&feature=player_embedded

Clean oil, but how about compression? Off to get the tool... brb.

 

[STLskater92]

Pop the valve cover and make sure nothing is in there. Its possible for a small bolt or nut to be bouncing around. And if there is a bolt, tell the shop that does your work that they needa fix the damn thing.

 

[scott90gsx420]

Ok well im going to start with your clicking sound. Does that go away? It looks like it does but im not sure. It really sounds like a collapsed lifter or shot valve/spring or retainer. That could be a good reason why it is running like crap. But as it goes away i wouldn't think that is the problem.
You said you were missing part of the thermostat??? IDK how that would have happened. Does the old one that was in half look like it was cut off(edges are smooth)or does it look like it slowely ripped off(metal looks stretched) If it was cut off id be letting that shop know there in for some serious papers and gonna be hearing from a lawer haha thats ridiculous man. If it looks ripped off then that could be what that sound is(the other half of your thermo. slapping the waterpump)
Im not a 2g guy(let alone a 420a) but i dont believe thats how the fpr goes in. It sounds like someone tried to jerry rig something on it. Try and twist it out with a pair of channel locks but don't turn to hard. If it won't come out then look at just picking up a new rail and fpr and throw them on this is what seems like one of the issues is. Do you have access to another set of injectors you could throw on and try that? Idk why other then a plugged injector only one wouldn't be getting fuel? try swapping the injectors around and see if the dry plug moves with the injectors thatd be easier then finding new injectors. Also you keep saying its backfiring which would be due to a lean AFR caused by one injectors not working so the ecu tried to compensate by adding fuel casuing things to run way rich.
The rough idle could be due to a lot of things such as a injector not working,bad HG,bad valve ext. thats gonna be really hard to diagnose without getting everything else fixed. But im willing to bet coolant flying all over the place isn't helping electric connections. So do something to slow that leak down if you cant get it fixed properly.
Swap injectors around to see if the dry plug moves with it if so you know which ones bad. If not then let us know and well figure it out from there.
Like the guy above said pull that cover and check for lose bolts or look to see if youv got any space between lifters and rocker arms. Just check to see its all tight. Be sure you don't tell the shop you pulled it off though it could void there warranty or something.
Let us know how your compression test goes(and depending on results how a leakdown test goes.) If your not getting water in the oil though idk if its a headgasket. Does the oil look like chocolate milk? Or does it have lots of bubbles in it?

 

[Mim]

Im back. To answer your questions, yes the sound went away. In fact after I got back with the compression tester, I started it up and it ran like it has been for the past couple weeks. Good idle to start then it starts to get bad. Revs up fine occasionally and then hesitates to rev other times. No real pattern other than it runs fine on cold start.

The thermo (I think I tossed it) looked like a clean cut. Not really a cut so much but there was no pulled or stretched metal. It could be that piece against the pump... I can hear a ticking in that area occasionally but what you saw on the video was a one time occurrence. Hasn't happened before and I cant seem to get it to happen again.

I don;t have any extra injectors, but the plugs aren't wet anymore anyway. I think they were just wet because I tried to start it so much with no success. Taking off the fuel rail in this thing is easier said than done. I believe you have to remove the intake to get to the bolts and that's no easy task either because of where the bolts are. When I took the head off, I just pulled the intake with it then took that off from there. I never even unhooked the intake from the manifold. Just took it all of as one piece. Also, for the past few days (before yesterday) it was backfiring when I would let off the gas and coast. (speed up or slow down issue)

**It just occurred to me that I never told you that I took the head off, had it machined and pressure tested plus a valve job myself and then towed it to a shop to have the job finished. (Because I didn't want to end up in this position)

I know the video for the oil wasn't very clear, but it is not milky or bubbly. It looks like new oil (as it should because it got changed with the head).

Now down to the compression test... and the real kick in my nuts...
Dry Tests:
Cyl 1: 40
Cyl 2: 0! YES 0. I did it several times
Cly 3: 5ish
Cyl 4: 60 (The dry one when the others were wet)

Wet Tests:
Cyl 1: 90 then drops to 35
Cyl 2: 50 then drops to 30
Cyl 3: 60 then drops to 35
Cyl 4: 100 then drops to 30

Yea that tells me I have a problem.... I am only running on 2 cylinders and not even half what they should be.... The fact that the oil looks good means the head is probably still good right? Could that mean bad rings? Good lord I hope not...

I can't do a leak down here because I don't have access to an air compressor. Any ideas?

On a side note: It doesn't overheat. I can let it idle (rough as it may be) and rev it all day and it doesn't overheat. While I was driving it over the past couple weeks (after I put in the new thermo) It wouldn't even get to 1/4 of the way up unless I was sitting at idle (say at a stop light) and even then it never went over half.

 

[scott90gsx420]

Ya id say that points to rings. But from my experience(with v8s but rings are rings) ive never seen it drop that low in all the cylinders, let alone run if it did. Thats way below the factory replace specs. MMhm that is definetly not good. Are you sure you had the compression tester tight all the way.
Haha not trying to flame you but i did that once like 1400miles after my build. My bud had messed with my afc and clicked the initialize(should be called reset) button. Anyway it caused me start running like crap because i didn't know he did it. i was fighting that issue for 4 days and did a compression test and got the same results like 60 across the board.
Then i realized that it looked like a bolt and tightened it. Then it jumped to 170 is the lowest number if i remember.
It seems like the two center ones are the lowest correct? IDK a 420's firing order but if its the two center cylinders that are low compression then it might be a cracked block. Its not a for sher thing oil and water will get mixed with a bad head or block its all about where the break is.
If i were you id pull your thero housing off to see if that piece of metal is floating around in there. If not take off your water pump and check to see if that piece of metal is in there. If not look at the pump and around it to see if it looks like its had metal to metal contact or looks chewed up. If it does time to rip that block apart and take it in to be ran threw.
I don't think its that hard to pull the fuel rail off is it? I pulled mine off just the other day and it was only 3 bolts and it pulled right out. It may be different with a 420 but i really dont think so. Post a pic .
As for your compression issues If you did the test right, as messed up as it sounds you should probably start looking at tearing her down. I say this because if your compression is that low youve got a big problem.
If it comes to this just start by taking it to the shop and making them rip her down with you watching. If they wont forever reason then you tear the head off. You will be able to see stains all over the head and HG if its been leaking water or oil into the cylinders. If they both look shiny still then youve got a ring or block issue.
And id say your temps are so low because you not firing on all cyliners. Meaning you not creating the heat you would with a properly operating engine. Also low compression would cause a smaller boom resulting in less heat.

 

[Mim]

I think it's getting close to time to give the mechanic a call and see what he says. So far as the compression test goes, I thought it a little odd myself. To be running that low on all 4 and still have enough to fire, run, and move? I mean, I am learning as I go, but that doesn't make sense.
While were on the point. When I did the test, it made a squealing noise like air was escaping (Ill make a video tomorrow after work) and that happened weather I had the extension (adapter... or whatever) attached or not. I have done this before and I don't remember hearing that. I figured it must have been right though because, although it was a rental, the plastic was still around the box. So I was the first to use it. I don't think I need the adapter because the threads on the end without attaching the adapter match the size of the plugs. (The adapter is smaller) I can't get it tight no matter what I do though... as soon as it gets a little snug the hose turns on the end. (I imagine it was designed like this so you can't over-tighten it and break it off in your plug hole)

Regardless I don't think I am supposed to hear the air escaping (if that is was it is), so I am going to take it back tomorrow and rent one from a diff store then re-test.

Thanks for all of the help so far! Ill let you know what tomorrow yields!

By the way, I took off the thermostat housing (the front part at least) and tried to reach my fingers down as far as I could. That produced no results, so I took my extend o magnet (awfully handy tool) and stuck that down as far as I could but didn't catch anything. Last resort I can work on getting the rest of the housing off (I need to replace it anyway) and see if there's anything there.

 

[Alex Bland]

are you sure the timing is set right? and the firing order is right, what did you torqe the head bolts to?

 

[Mim]

are you sure the timing is set right? and the firing order is right, what did you torqe the head bolts to?

Im almost positive the timing is on point, unless it skipped a tooth, but I am not throwing any codes except bad fuel air mixture. I will take the tire off and double check this afternoon.

Not sure how to check the firing order, but if I pull any plug while the car is running, the idle changes, so I think it's firing correctly.

I didn't torque the bolts myself. The shop did. However I am planning on re-torquing them this afternoon. Whats the spec and order?

 

[brandonwh64]

Im sorry your having issues! since i have been working on mine, i have changed the suspension and installed a cold air kit and messed with the power steering pump. Now mine is throwing error codes and when im driving down the road it shuts off for 1 second then starts back up and all the lights flicker. This morning i went to start it and it took like 3 minutes to start and it sounded if it was flooded.

These 420A are temperamental

 

[Mim]

Im sorry your having issues! since i have been working on mine, i have changed the suspension and installed a cold air kit and messed with the power steering pump. Now mine is throwing error codes and when im driving down the road it shuts off for 1 second then starts back up and all the lights flicker. This morning i went to start it and it took like 3 minutes to start and it sounded if it was flooded.

These 420A are temperamental

Does it run ok when you start it back up? Lights flickering tells me it electrical. Did a plug come loose? What code are you throwing?

 

[brandonwh64]

Does it run ok when you start it back up? Lights flickering tells me it electrical. Did a plug come loose? What code are you throwing?

Well once it starts, it runs smooth. i drive 80 miles a day and it will do the 1 second jerk about 4 times everyday. the code its throwing is the temp sensor below the "goose neck" there the thermostat is. i bought one yesterday and i will probably install it today when i get home but i dont see how that would make it loose power for 1 second then back to normal?

 

[tec_41]

I thought the FPR was the culprit as well, but I can't figure out how to get it off the fuel line. All of the tut's I found have a diff FPR than me. They all have two screws that you take off and then it comes out but mine is set into the end of the fuel rail and I can't figure out how to get it off... I can pull the vacuum line and no gas spits out so from what I have read it isn't punctured or anything but that still doesn't tell me its good.

To remove the 95 FPR you have to take out the snap ring that holds it in place...if you do this you'll spit fuel everywhere, obviously. I doubt it'd have anything to do with your problem...I had one that went bad on me and it would leak a little gas out of the vac line.

That ticking sound after the car dies is upsetting. I'd pop the valve cover off an take a look for loose nuts/bolts, any damage to the cams, etc. It should only take a few minutes to do.

 

[Alex Bland]

well if the timing is off it will run with bad a/f ratio, atleast i think it will. in my head it would make since too. also the firing order should be like this
http://arrc.epnet.com/autoapp/8957/chiltonimages/8957/89572G22L.gif

if you have the fire order wrong it will still sometimes run just not sparking it when it should be so if you pull the plug off its still going to run worse cause atleast before it was atleast parking. check that out and update us. sorry for bad grammer/spelling

from one of your videos i can see that ## fireing order is right. so maybe check timing now if thats off it can make low compression, and all sorts of bad noises.

 

[scott90gsx420]

I think it's getting close to time to give the mechanic a call and see what he says. So far as the compression test goes, I thought it a little odd myself. To be running that low on all 4 and still have enough to fire, run, and move? I mean, I am learning as I go, but that doesn't make sense.
While were on the point. When I did the test, it made a squealing noise like air was escaping (Ill make a video tomorrow after work) and that happened weather I had the extension (adapter... or whatever) attached or not. I have done this before and I don't remember hearing that. I figured it must have been right though because, although it was a rental, the plastic was still around the box. So I was the first to use it. I don't think I need the adapter because the threads on the end without attaching the adapter match the size of the plugs. (The adapter is smaller) I can't get it tight no matter what I do though... as soon as it gets a little snug the hose turns on the end. (I imagine it was designed like this so you can't over-tighten it and break it off in your plug hole)

Regardless I don't think I am supposed to hear the air escaping (if that is was it is), so I am going to take it back tomorrow and rent one from a diff store then re-test.

Thanks for all of the help so far! Ill let you know what tomorrow yields!

By the way, I took off the thermostat housing (the front part at least) and tried to reach my fingers down as far as I could. That produced no results, so I took my extend o magnet (awfully handy tool) and stuck that down as far as I could but didn't catch anything. Last resort I can work on getting the rest of the housing off (I need to replace it anyway) and see if there's anything there.

Lol i did the same thing when i did my compression test. Tightened it with the hose. You have to pull the hose off and put the part that goes into the plug hole in and tighten it with a ratchet. At least thats what i had to do and it fixed my problem. Just make sure when you tighten it that you dont tighten it to much and strip your plug hole as you stated. Ive removed my plugs so much i dont even have to use torque wrenches anymore when putting them back in ive got the feel for it but id recomend you use one if your kinda new to that aspect.
There is no way i could see it running if those were the actual numbers as 120 is the replacement specs(i believe but dont quote me).
Ya you might as well pull that thermo housing off and look. And if you cant get the stripped hole fixed when you tighten it back down try putting a bunch of rvt sealer on there. It will only be temporary fix but it will at least help slow your leak.

 

[Mim]

Hey guys,

Just got home but now I have to go back into work... means I probably won't get to my car much tonight. I am off tomorrow and I will tackle all of these issues then. Thanks again for all of the advice!

So far as the compression test goes, I tightened the adapter with a ratchet but it just kept spinning. That and the fact that the adapter threads are smaller than the actual spark plug makes me think that I don't need the adapter. But then the end piece just spins on the hose once it gets even slightly tight. I will take that one back tomorrow and rent a different one. The replacement spec is 100.. i believe I read that last night. Once again makes me think there is an issue with the test. I did all 4 cylinders several times just to be sure, but how can a car possibly run on two cylinders with a total of 100...? Let alone move... I can start it and drive it down the street and back if I want...

Depending on the results of the test, I might do 1 of 3 things. Take it back to the shop that put it together and see what they will do for me (I can't afford to pay them to do the rings but maybe I can convince them that they should have warned me about this in the first place and they need to fix it), take the whole thing out myself and rebuild (I've never done the bottom half of an engine before but then again... Ive never done anything that I had to do to this car before and I learned just fine), or put some heavy weight oil in it and sell it the first chance I get. Well see what happens...

Even with air leaking on the test, the fact that all 4 shot up a nice amount tells me that I might have blown the rings with the new top end. I knew I should have replaced those to begin with but I already thought I was in over my head (I've learned a lot since then).

Anyway, I'll be sure to keep you updated.

 

[scott90gsx420]

The hose doesn't disconnect from the thing at the bottom?? IDK if you positively have bad rings like a said they usually don't just die like that. Rebuilding the bottom end isn't really that difficult you just have to pay attention and be sure you order the exact bearings and rings. i wouldn't rig it up then just sell it thats kinda jacked unless you intend to tell the people openly it runs like crap. I wouldn't personally pawn it off on someone but then again its not my car. I don't think its the rings its head related im pretty sure. But it is still possible and its still possible that you somehow cracked the block between those two cylinders.

 

[Alex Bland]

i bet your spark plug holes are all stripped and your compression test is low cause the tester isnt right, and runs bad because your spark plugs are hardly sitting in there and air is leaking past them, that would make alot of sounds because you can hear everything. just a guess. im thinking of a way to test it. just to see if it is i would screw ## spark plugs in and have someone turn the key over for you and feel above them for air (with the wires off) or if you dont know anyone try taping the sparkplug hole up and see if when you turn the key over it blows the tape off. if that makes since haha. just a idea

 

[Mim]

i wouldn't rig it up then just sell it thats kinda jacked unless you intend to tell the people openly it runs like crap. I wouldn't personally pawn it off on someone but then again its not my car.

Your right... I couldn't do that and feel right about it.

i bet your spark plug holes are all stripped and your compression test is low cause the tester isnt right, and runs bad because your spark plugs are hardly sitting in there and air is leaking past them, that would make alot of sounds because you can hear everything. just a guess. im thinking of a way to test it. just to see if it is i would screw ## spark plugs in and have someone turn the key over for you and feel above them for air (with the wires off) or if you dont know anyone try taping the sparkplug hole up and see if when you turn the key over it blows the tape off. if that makes since haha. just a idea

Ill give it a try, but when I put in the plugs, they screw down tight... doesn't make sense...

 

[Calan]

i bet your spark plug holes are all stripped and your compression test is low cause the tester isnt right, and runs bad because your spark plugs are hardly sitting in there and air is leaking past them, that would make alot of sounds because you can hear everything. just a guess. im thinking of a way to test it. just to see if it is i would screw ## spark plugs in and have someone turn the key over for you and feel above them for air (with the wires off) or if you dont know anyone try taping the sparkplug hole up and see if when you turn the key over it blows the tape off. if that makes since haha. just a idea

Uhhhh... what?

 

[Mim]

So... new development. You remember when I checked the oil and it was nice and clean?

Watch this....

YouTube - Milky oil