Water Injection VS Nitrous

[Slippi84]

Let me first start off by saying that I know this is like comparing apples to oranges but I will am referring to someone in my position and not just a general which is better as I think there are a lot of people that are like me. I have a turbo that is plenty big and could probably satisfy my needs with boost alone. That's if I was a normal person but I own a dsm . Anyway knowing all the options out there such as water alky meth propane nitrous water ect I thought that water and nitrous seemed the most logical for me as the others seemed to not be for me. Anyway the question is when you know you have a turbo setup that is good enough but want more which is better water or Nitrous?

Nitrous:
Obviously we all know nitrous=cheapest hp/$ but there is the risk of engine failure and upkeap(refilling) and isn't something you want activated 24/7

Water injection:
Cheap cheap cheap. Did i meantion water injection is cheap. You buy the kit hook it up and you have almost free chemical intercooling at your fingertips without much risk and can be activated 24/7.

 

[donmagicjuan]

It depends on how much more horsepower you're looking to pick up. Water injection is great for the health of the engine, but it will only net you about as much as a good tune on race gas will. I picked up about
40-50 whp after tuning with my water/meth injection setup. Nitrous, on the other hand, has the potential to add way more, but of course comes at a greater risk for someone relatively inexperienced. Not to mention it is only a push-button power adder.

Just my .02

 

[fourreGsixty3]

I would say a water/meth kit, and have it close to the TB, that will net to the best effects for cheap, and not have to worry about blowing your engine up if it is unequiped for the n2o. The meth/water injection, cools intake charge temps so less chance of detonation, it ups the octane count of pump gas to you can run more boost on pump gas, it cleans up carbon build up, and keeps the valves, and combustion chamber clean...well as clean as they can get. It will slow spool a little but not by more then 100-300 rpms or so, this is due to the EGTs being a bit lower from the lower intake charges. Also depending an what type of n2o you run you will have to get larger injectors, if you go direct-port then you will need larger injectors if you go wet( recommended for turbo'd cars) then you wont need larger injectors because the n2o will be atomized into the fuel.

Dustin

 

[perley03]

Also depending an what type of n2o you run you will have to get larger injectors, if you go direct-port then you will need larger injectors if you go wet( recommended for turbo'd cars) then you wont need larger injectors because the n2o will be atomized into the fuel.

You want to translate this for us? First you say you need to run larger injectors then you say you won't need to, all in one sentence. WTF ?

 

[jking29]

What he was trying to say was, if you run a dry nitrous system, you must run larger injectors because the extra fuel must be added by the injectors. If you run a wet system, the extra fuel is added at the nitrous nozzle and you do not need larger injectors. As he said, a wet system is the only way to go on a turbo car.

 

[Slippi84]

I would say a water/meth kit, and have it close to the TB, that will net to the best effects for cheap, and not have to worry about blowing your engine up if it is unequiped for the n2o. The meth/water injection, cools intake charge temps so less chance of detonation, it ups the octane count of pump gas to you can run more boost on pump gas, it cleans up carbon build up, and keeps the valves, and combustion chamber clean...well as clean as they can get. It will slow spool a little but not by more then 100-300 rpms or so, this is due to the EGTs being a bit lower from the lower intake charges. Also depending an what type of n2o you run you will have to get larger injectors, if you go direct-port then you will need larger injectors if you go wet( recommended for turbo'd cars) then you wont need larger injectors because the n2o will be atomized into the fuel.

Dustin

Yeah man I think you might be thinkin about the pump. How much you spray has nothing to do with injectors. Your right about the slower spool because of egts but that's why you get water/alky to turn up boost or add timing so you can get more thus bringing the egts back up plus the more timing or leaner a/f ratio.

 

[Slippi84]

What he was trying to say was, if you run a dry nitrous system, you must run larger injectors because the extra fuel must be added by the injectors. If you run a wet system, the extra fuel is added at the nitrous nozzle and you do not need larger injectors. As he said, a wet system is the only way to go on a turbo car.

This is true to a point but only when your close to maxing out your injectors. Say you have 650's and your only at 75%idc then when you spray you will still be ok as long as it's not a crazy shot but if your already at 85 90% then you'll need bigger injectors or a bigger pump and more fuel pressure but bigger injectors would be the right way to do it.


Anyway lets say the desired hp gains are anywehre from 35-60whp. I figure that with a turbo like mine in reality 500whp will be doable but only on race gas I want a setup that will do it on pump. So it's either pump and spray or pump and water injection. Yes I know there are other like I said before these are the only two i'm concerned aboput for now.

 

[donmagicjuan]

If you want a system that will allow you to run a race gas tune on pump gas, then water/meth injection is the winner, hands down.

 

[perley03]

What he was trying to say was, if you run a dry nitrous system, you must run larger injectors because the extra fuel must be added by the injectors. If you run a wet system, the extra fuel is added at the nitrous nozzle and you do not need larger injectors. As he said, a wet system is the only way to go on a turbo car.

I get the point he was trying to say. Just trying to correct it incase someone who doesn't know about nitrous systems and turbo cars reads it and misunderstands it. I know what needs to be run in a nitrous setup, and one in a turbo car. Just trying to help a person out who doesn't understand the concept of seeing things from a different point of view. No bashing anyone here, just corrections.

 

[fourreGsixty3]

perley03, sorry bout the mis-understanding or jumbled up words, my words always seem better in my head. Thanks for clearing it up with everyone jking29, thats what I was making my point towards, Thanks.Slippi84post #6, yes the egts slow spool, but the ability to up the boost technicly voids it out, but no matter what the spool at any boost level with meth/water kit will be slower then without. Your #7 post yes this is true. Didnt think I really need to get into since you have a set of 950s, and you IDC isnt at 85%+, I was mearly mentioning both versions of n2o(wet and direct). My vote is with Don on this one hands down, get to run high boost and can still say you fill up down the street at the 7/11 pumps before you hit the track. IMO meth./water injection is the best for the money, people say that n2o is the highest hp gain/$, this is true but only if your engine is set-up to handle it, if not it is a poor investment because you have to build up the internals to handle the n2o. Also dont use windshield washer fluid, sure its cheap as hell, and some people use it but it doesn't soak up heat from the intake charge as well as good ole meth./water mixture.

Dustin

 

[hairybeanbag]

What he was trying to say was, if you run a dry nitrous system, you must run larger injectors because the extra fuel must be added by the injectors. If you run a wet system, the extra fuel is added at the nitrous nozzle and you do not need larger injectors. As he said, a wet system is the only way to go on a turbo car.

Thats' not true at all!

Yes, a wet system is the only way to go on a turbo car!

Having to run bigger injectors on a Dry kit is BS.

Nos Brand N20 kits come with a one way check valve that use's the bottle pressure to raise the fuel pressure on the cars stock regulator to 45 psi. their is also a safty switch to make sure Fuel pressure is achived before the secound silenoid injects n20 into the intake pipe.

So you see, the kits adding more fuel pressure through your stock injectors! this is why you not need a AFC or bigger injectors to run a dry kit. You would also be stupid to try this on a turbo car NA's only!!!

 

[fourreGsixty3]

Thats' not true at all!

Yes, a wet system is the only way to go on a turbo car!

Having to run bigger injectors on a Dry kit is BS.

Nos Brand N20 kits come with a one way check valve that use's the bottle pressure to raise the fuel pressure on the cars stock regulator to 45 psi. their is also a safty switch to make sure Fuel pressure is achived before the secound silenoid injects n20 into the intake pipe.

So you see, the kits adding more fuel pressure through your stock injectors! this is why you not need a AFC or bigger injectors to run a dry kit. You would also be stupid to try this on a turbo car NA's only!!!

Yes it is true but he only left out 1 fact which I also left out, but mearly because I didnt think it that nessesary do to the fact that direct-port isnt good for turbo'd cars, unless they are full out race machines set-up for it. A test at 100% duty cycle is used to determine the maximum amount of fuel that will flow through an injector in a given time. It is usually NOT recommended to run an injector at more than 80% duty cycle under actual driving conditions. This 80% duty cycle operating limit is taken into account to make sure the injector will be large enough to feed the engine under ACTUAL OPERATING CONDITIONS and will not starve the engine for fuel. That is why under most instances injectors must be upgraded when using direct-port n2o. Just upping the fuel pressure wont cure this problem mearly mask it for some time, if anything it would cause problems down the road from running the IDC too high, and eventually burning them out.

Dustin

 

[hairybeanbag]

Yes it is true but he only left out 1 fact which I also left out, but mearly because I didnt think it that nessesary do to the fact that direct-port isnt good for turbo'd cars, unless they are full out race machines set-up for it. A test at 100% duty cycle is used to determine the maximum amount of fuel that will flow through an injector in a given time. It is usually NOT recommended to run an injector at more than 80% duty cycle under actual driving conditions. This 80% duty cycle operating limit is taken into account to make sure the injector will be large enough to feed the engine under ACTUAL OPERATING CONDITIONS and will not starve the engine for fuel. That is why under most instances injectors must be upgraded when using direct-port n2o. Just upping the fuel pressure wont cure this problem mearly mask it for some time, if anything it would cause problems down the road from running the IDC too high, and eventually burning them out.

Dustin

Dustin,

Wet kits and DP kits have the same foggers and jetting format, fuel is added by replacing pill style jets in the fogger housing not injectors. If you think a DP kit's are not "sreetable" than you must have some really fast cars where you live.

"under actual driving conditions"? your only on the squeeze for a few secounds at a time, if your car runs lean it's because your fuel pump sucks. Almost everone here that runs N20 has a 190lb pump or bigger and a FPR, you can't run more than a 50 shot wet kit with out upgrading your stock fuel delivery. Nitrous kits don't have anything to do with injectors, if you follow the manul for N20 and fuel jetting together they sould not change your AFR's much on any tune, as the fuel compensates for the extra power being injected threw 1 or 4 foggers.

Sorry to take this thread off topic.

 

[fourreGsixty3]

If you think a DP kit's are not "sreetable" than you must have some really fast cars where you live.

I said nothing about it not being street able, mearly said that the engine should be built up to handle it first, and yes I do have some fast cars around where I live, a 10 sec mustang(all motor), and a high 10 sec "boostang", as well as a 10 sec DSM, none of these use n2o, but still pretty fast. I also said nothing about running lean, I only mentioned IDC, a high IDC will burn the injectors out, that is why if your IDC is at say 90% before the n2o then upgrading them would be needed...but it would also be recommended regardless of the n2o. n2o seems to be your section of knowledge.

Dustin

 

[jrpmp69]

What would happen if you had a water/meth injection kit and you were running 112 race fuel or c-16? Would it raise your octane rating some more?

 

[fourreGsixty3]

If you ran straight meth it would raise it up to 120 octane roughly speaking of course.

Dustin

 

[Slippi84]

I stated like 3 post ago this but I will reiterate for those who don't read before posting. INJECTORS AS WELL AS THE PUMP CAN BE THE PROBLEM. hairybeanbag Where do you think the extra fuel goes when the pump steps it up cause fuel pressure is raised.... the injectors if your injectors don't have any more room to flow more fuel then you need bigger injectors. If you have a pump that can't flow any more when the nitrous system requires more fuel meaning higher fuel pressure it too need to be replaced. This is only dealing with a dry kit. WIth a wet kit then the injectors are irrelevent because you are suplying extra fuel threw the nozzel. The pump is still an issue with a wet kit though as the same thing can happen where it's not big enough to supply the injectors and the nozzel.

 

[2gGSX]

hairybeanbag Where do you think the extra fuel goes when the pump steps it up cause fuel pressure is raised.... the injectors if your injectors don't have any more room to flow more fuel then you need bigger injectors.

This is actually incorrect. The extra fuel goes through the FPR, through the fuel return line, and ultimately back to the tank. Raising your base fuel pressure above stock actually does increase your injectors' effective flow rate--[(new pressure)/(old pressure)]^.5 x injector size.

 

[Slippi84]

This is actually incorrect. The extra fuel goes through the FPR, through the fuel return line, and ultimately back to the tank. Raising your base fuel pressure above stock actually does increase your injectors' effective flow rate--[(new pressure)/(old pressure)]^.5 x injector size.

I don't know where your getting this but it's wrong. You raise your fuel pressure you flow more fuel but if your injectors are maxed out you will not flow any more fuel no matter how high you raise the reassyre you'll just blow orings and leak like a sive period. A maxed out fuel system is the situation I'm talkin about. Bottom line injectors are a factor when dealing with dry nitrous systems don't think so go run a dry 75 shot on a auto 1g with 390's with a walbro 255 and i shall pray for your engine.

 

[2gGSX]

I don't know where your getting this but it's wrong. You raise your fuel pressure you flow more fuel but if your injectors are maxed out you will not flow any more fuel no matter how high you raise the reassyre you'll just blow orings and leak like a sive period. A maxed out fuel system is the situation I'm talkin about. Bottom line injectors are a factor when dealing with dry nitrous systems don't think so go run a dry 75 shot on a auto 1g with 390's with a walbro 255 and i shall pray for your engine.

I'm pretty sure we were just at a misunderstanding. It sounds like you're saying at 100% IDC, they're at 100% IDC. I was talking about the overall flow of the injectors relative to fuel pressure--100% IDC at 43 psi base fuel pressure for 450's is 450cc/min whereas 100% IDC at 53 psi base fuel pressure for 450's would be 500cc/min.