Valve Springs and Retainers

[nothingfiction]

i am planning to do a cam and cam gear upgrade and i got the spring and retainer set they recommended (just to be safe)

the Cams are the Crower 2's, and the Crower titanium spring and retainer set.
the Cam Gears are AEM ( +10 -10 adjustable)

i have read that you do not need the springs and retainers as they are not needed, but i would rather upgrade now than worry about it down the road. i know to keep the cam gears set at zero, so thats not the problem.

My problem is this... calling around just to get time estimates of how long this job should take me everyone says the cams and cam gears are a easy 2-3 hour job. So i am figuring 5 hours to do it myself . However when asked about the springs they say that that alone is about a 9 hour job and i will have to remove the head. My satan shoppe said they could mark it down as just a head gasket job and save me some money... is this really needed? after 3 hours of searching, i have only found one person say that you do NOT have to remove the head to replace the springs. i am just wanting to know what all to expect here realistically.

While i am at it, what all else will be needed?
valve cover gasket
Will i really need to replace my valve seals/guides?
what else?

i have read that you can just do cams and nothing else. i am not looking into doing a big head job. just upgrading the cams properly. Thank you for your help. if any other information is needed, just ask.

(there is nothing wrong with the car. i am just upgrading because i want more power, not because they need replacing)

 

[Guzman08]

u dont need to replace the valves. and u wont need to take off the head. some mechanics take off the head because it makes it so easy., they use a c- clamp. u can buy a valve spring compressor online that works great. and i recommend changing the valve stems since the ones you have on are probably worn and oil might get through and u will be burning the oil. causing white smoke.

the compressor is something like this... not this one though.. alike http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/valv...Z190392542416QQptZMotorsQ5fAutomotiveQ5fTools

here check this out and rate me..

Google Image Result for http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y140/toufueyangstaz/100_8023.jpg

 

[nothingfiction]

My cam upgrade is merely for more power to my 420A engine. not because i have a bad camshaft.
i don't know if that's what you were implying or not. But your post sounds hastily typed .

"u dont need to replace the valve stems"
"and i recommend changing the valve stems"

Looking at it, they're only about 35 bucks for a set so i may just get them.
But do i need to? My engine was just totally rebuilt and only been running for about 2 years now.
Everything was replaced (waterpump, oilpump, valves, pistons, rods, ect) it's all OEM.

 

[Guzman08]

its all up to you. and i changed it, i ments to put valves. you may want to check if they are worn , if they do look bad. just replace before you have to do it all over again.
never implied you had anything bad, was just giving you some info.

 

[nothingfiction]

i respect the info. thank you.

How hard would it be to take the springs off without the compressor? or do you absolutely need it unless you take the head off?

 

[LD25Delta9]

Here's my advice: Take off the head to replace the springs. Here's my reasoning: It's good for the experience, you'll be able to clean off any carbon build up, you can do a mild DIY port and polish(which is NOT hard), you can lap the valves while you have the springs off, it's the best time to prep for boost by getting a MLS head gasket and ARP head studs, and plus how badass is it to say that you did all that yourself? It's all fairly easy work, just time consuming. If decide not to go this route and use the compressor just to replace the springs, be careful not to knock the valve around and break the seal, cause the valve can drop into the cylinder. Either way, good luck!

 

[Guzman08]

true dat about the valves. do one piston at a time. move the timing so the piston you will work on is raised up.then change the 4 valve stems there and go to the next, with the piston raised. you do need a compressor to take off the springs, it can be very dangerous and u might lose it when it flies off. . and u will need it to compress the new springs u bought to install. if i remember, and close up all ## spark plug wholes when u take them off so nothing can fall in them. . its more work when u have to replace the springs as well have to be more careful.

 

[90moneypit]

If you're going to do it, two things. Make sure you replace the keepers along with the springs and retainers. Second, fill the cylinder with rope and then compress it a little to make sure you DON'T drop a valve into the cylinder. It's possible to do it without the rope trick but do you really want to take the head off if you don't have to? On a side note about the MLS headgasket, both surfaces have to be perfectly smooth in order for it to work and if you had an organic headgasket before, the chances of not scratching either surface is virtually nil. You also would want to resurface the head to make sure it's perfectly flat for a MLS too. Anything less than perfection and it will leak, copper spray can only do so much to cover imperfections.

 

[nothingfiction]

This is why i am asking . i am trying to make sure i can replace the springs alone without having to take off the head and get into all this other work too. i've read how the cams is an easy job. with the cams out i should (theoretically) be able to take the springs out too (without taking the head off).

This is my daily driver and i can't have my car disassembled for a long period of time. the less work i have to put into this now, the better. if it's going to be too much of a job for my heavy time constraints i may just bring it to a shoppe but i'd hate to have some assmongul work on my car then try to tell me "after we took your valve cover off we noticed you had a leak in your exhaust and your radiator has too much pressure and there was a tiny little unicorn jumping around in your head eating your cv joints and your throttlebody, so we took that all that off and resurfaced your block and the unicorn ran away into your clutch and now 3rd just grinds and we did your timing belt and heres your bill for a hundred thousand dollars".

Think simple. i want to do this right, but i don't want to get into every little thing else inside like lifters and 3 angle valve jobs and such. This is all revolving around upgrading my cams to the Crower 2's.

 

[Guzman08]

whats the lift on them depending on the lift you may not need to replace the springs.

 

[nothingfiction]

Crower
64462-2 Stage 2 - 3/4 Race
Most popular profile for the street/strip.
Lope at idle.
#84176 required.
RPM Range: 2000 to 7500+

Advertised Duration
241 / 241

Duration @ .050"
196 / 194

Gross Lift w/1.75
.388" / .357"

84176 - KIT MITSUBISHI/DSM/MOPAR SINGLE SPRING & TI RETAINERS

 

[El Cuervo]

If you know for a fact that your valve stem seals are fine and you are ok with them, then don't replace them. Now, if it was me, I would replace them. Same thing with your timing belt. Do you think that it doesn't need replacement at all?? If you are sure about it, then don't replace it. If you have the slightest doubt about it, then just buy an new OEM belt and replace it. Buy the ebay spring compressor. It is great!! I really recommed it. Thats what I have used and it works extremely good. Also buy some nylon rope to feed down the spark plug hole and into the desired chamber from with piston you will be compressing and thus securing the valve in place. You don't need to buy new valve keepers. You can re-use those. Unless you have extra cash.
I honestly don't know how long it will take you. Its not that hard to do. But it is reather time consuming. Either way, you will need to take your timing belt off in order to compress the rope against the valves. remember to also buy a new valve cover gasket kit.

 

[nothingfiction]

i'm sorry if my previous post sounded b**chy. i didn't mean it to really.

and i do appreciate the thoughts and suggestions. But i would ultimately like to keep the head on if at all possible.

thank you El Cuervo. i knew i was missing something. i knew i would have to replace the valve cover gasket. the timing belt should be fine but i would rather replace that too along with the serpentine belt too (just to be safe).

assuming i am keeping the head on... what else is all really needed?
valve cover gasket kit
timing belt
serpentine belt
valve seals... how hard is that? what needs to be done... gotta research it now...
anything else?

 

[El Cuervo]

The serpentine belt is your timing belt. You can also buy the timing belt components if you like. Thats up to you.
Valve cover gasket kit and something to clean your valve cover from the gasket that might stay glued to it. Carb cleaner or break cleaner works good.
Cam seals.
Nylon rope.
Assembly lube.
Depending on condition, I would repalce the spark plugs and wires while you are at it.
Blue locktight for the cam sproket bolts.
The valve seals are easy to replace. There is a write up on it on the tech articles.
You also need to buy the valve spring compressor.
Do you have the factory manual or the chiltons manual? if not, then I recommend you buy it. It will tell you the torque specs on things.
You also need a timing light and torque wrench.
Motor Oil of your choice.

 

[nothingfiction]

Oh i thought the serpentine belt was the one for the underdrive accessory pulley. My bad.

Two things caught me off guard.
1: cam seals. can't i just re-use the ones i already have? i'm not disregarding any of the information at all. just asking why you would recommend it. if it's good enough for me i will find a way to put that into my budget.
2: oil. Are you saying while i am doing this i should change my oil as well? No reason not to, i just want to make sure that's what you meant or not.

and i have a haynes manual (can't find a chiltons around here)
need to get off base and go to my dad's and get it this weekend. Altho this cam job won't be started nor finished till prob the end of next month. i am just getting everything together first.

 

[david-b]

You're oil will have to be changed about 500 miles after installing the new cams. You will get some metal flakes from them. I've pulled heads without draining oil for quick jobs, but it's your call.

Personally since you're taking off the timing belt anyways, I would replace the water pump and oil pump, tensioners and pulleys. However that makes the job a little longer and seems like you want it pretty quick. Just take note on how everything is. Will make it easier for if/when you decide to do it again.

It's really not too hard. First time will take a while, but just notice where every nut and bolt came from and make sure they all go back.

 

[Guzman08]

the valve cover is expensive at car parts stores. like $40. u cna find it on ebay for $18 more or less. they work the same way.

 

[nothingfiction]

Looking around online for valve spring compressor tools...
Anyone know if this one is any good?

MOROSO Stud Mount Valve Spring Compressor

Installation Instructions
P/N 62370- Stud Mount Valve Spring Compressor
This tool is designed to make valve spring changing easier and can be used with either 3/8”-24
or 7/16”-20 rocker arm studs. The piston should be at TDC to avoid having the valves drop into
the cylinder once keepers are removed. After removing the stud girdle (If used) mount the
compressor on the head as follows:
1. Remove rocker arm push rod from cylinder on which valve spring is to be changed.
2. Determine which end of the plunger is to be used. One end contain 7/16-20 threads and
one end contains 3/8”-24 threads. To interchange the plunger remove the ¼” snap ring,
slide the ¼” clevis pin out, remove the plunger and interchange it end for end. Reverse
the above procedure to reassemble.
3. Depress lever so that plunger extends through base.
4. Screw down compressor on rocker stud at least 1”.
5. Center base over valve stem resting on retainer.
Note: Many times in extremely high RPM engines, the keepers and retainers may
become fused due to constant high RPM pounding or valve float. In these cases, it is
best to free the keepers by centering a minimum 9/16” deep socket on the retainer and
striking it with a hammer. Use Caution Here. This method is made to free the keepers
form the retainer not to pop them out.
6. Pull handle down to compress valve spring. If valve spring does not compress enough,
move tool up or down on stud.
7. If handle is hitting firewall, fender, ect. move handle right or left to compensate.
8. Reverse procedure to install spring.

Parts List
1 Valve spring compressor with nut
1 2” Handle with Grip
1 Fork Plate

Simplifes between-rounds valve spring changing
Unlike models offered by other manufacturers,Moroso’s stud mount tool fits both 3/8" and 7/16" rocker studs
Strong, durable handle withstands the most extreme high pressure valve springs
The 12" handle gives all the leverage needed to compress the strongest springs

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Any one know of one specified for the 420A engine? i can't find one.
Anyone else have one that they would prefer or suggest?

 

[LD25Delta9]

Why would she need to replace to oil after doing cams? She doesn't have flat tappet lifters....they're hydraulic, non adjustables....These aren't honduhs. There shouldn't be any grinding going on. And no, the timing belt is NOT the serpentine belt. We don't have a serpentine belt. We have 2 accessory belts. One for AC and PS and the other for the alternator. The timing belt is the timing belt.... You don't need to have the head resurfaced or the block resurfaced when using an MLS either, it's called a plastic cookie for a die grinder and an air chuck. You should only resurface when something gets warped. Otherwise you have to buy an custom thickness gasket, which they do make, but why go through the hassle?

OP, for removal of you valves, all you need is a proper sized socket and a 2lb sledge hammer. Take a thick rubber band and wrap it around as much of the valve as possible through the spring, put the other end of the rubber band on a bolt you threaded into the head, then center the socket over the valve and WHAM! You might drop a keeper or two into the head so make sure to have a small magnet ready. I still suggest removing the head especially if you car has more than 40k miles since the last head gasket change. Your car will be down for a total of 2 days if you're organized, and eff paying a shop. It's been statistically proven that here in the US, women get taken advantage of by mechanics 32% more than men. Not sure what it is up there in mountain country, but still..for sake of argument. DSM DIY FTW!!!

 

[El Cuervo]

LD25Delta9. You reword it better. Thanks. Thats what I mean to say. That He/she doesn't have a serpentine belt but a timing belt.
Either way, Cams do need fresh clean oil for initial start up. Even though they are roller cams with hydraulic lifters, they are seated on bearings with caps that do make metal to metal contact and the only thing that prevents them from grinding metal is the assembly lube for start up and the clean new oil that follows after it. Thats why you need clean oil. If you don't lube the cam bearrings and cam caps, you will damage them. So yes, get clean oil for the initial start up. Contact the cam company for an specific procedure on how to brake in your cams.

 

[bullettdsm]

Ok,
You do not need new keepers
You do not need new valve stems (You cannot replace valve stems on our valves. BUT you can replace valve stem SEALS)
You do not have to replace the valve stems seals (BUT you might want to because you are already there and they are awfully cheap. With them being 2 years old - age vs mileage on the seals - you may choose to put some new ones on - though not necessary).
You do not need new timing components of any kind IF (as you say) you haven't put high mileage on the car in that 2 year period (say less than 30k within 2 years).
There is no reason to lap used valves into the same head, with the same valves, in the same position.
You do not need a timing light for any reason.
You do not have cam bearings. Nobody does (with a 420a head that is).
You do not have to change your oil (but it might be a nice thing to do because of any insignificant crap that you might drop in there while doing the job).
If you remove your cams, then all your valves would be closed, no? No reason to turn engine over to go from one cylinder to another

OP, for removal of you valves, all you need is a proper sized socket and a 2lb sledge hammer. Take a thick rubber band and wrap it around as much of the valve as possible through the spring, put the other end of the rubber band on a bolt you threaded into the head, then center the socket over the valve and WHAM! You might drop a keeper or two into the head so make sure to have a small magnet ready. !!!

I would do this process only if the head was out of the car (of course, then you wouldn't need the rubber band). Otherwise, I can about guarantee you (using the formula for Murphy's Law) that one or more keepers will fly off and end up inside your engine.

Yes, you can do this job while the head is on the car. Just not too much fun. I have done it with the head in the car using a spring device that I designed and a buddy built. This is it with the head off (I use a different arm with the head on);

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You will need a way to compress the springs (as some have alluded to with the links etc.) and a way to keep the valves in position (using string in the cylinder as a blocker for the bottom of the valve - so it doesn't fall into the chamber. Or using air - constant pneumatic pressure so that the valves won't fall down into the chamber - that's the way I do it).

I left this thread alone in hopes that it would straighten out. I hope this clears up a little of the misinformation within this thread.

MB

 

[LD25Delta9]

WHAMMY!
I was suggesting the lap if she did the PnP. Always thought it was a good idea. The man hath spoken!

 

[nothingfiction]

i have an extra head and valve cover that i plan to have get worked on later. i like to do things in steps. Sure i could pnp my head and put that in there while im doing this. but i want to see and feel and document each step before moving on to the next step. sure it may be easier to do it all at once, but wheres the fun in that? if one upgrade step goes bad or anything it makes it much harder to diagnose any problems. i'm not looking to do a major rebuild yet (yet). when i do the pnp and paint the valve cover i also plan to upgrade to eagle rods and stainless steel valves and new pistons and such. just one thing at a time tho. Everything in it's own time and within my price range at the time.

Most people are wanting my to take it all apart and do the head gasket and head work and such, but they fail to understand even tho i have posted before... this is on my daily driver and i have a 2 day window a week per job (at the moment). if i can't finish this in a weekend im screwed and work is more important than vanity upgrades in order to keep future upgrades possible.

But besides that... Keep on with thoughts and/or suggestions.
i am KEEPING the head on the block unless i screw something up and drop a valve or something.
NO headwork is going to be done at all unless you would prefer me to try to do the exhaust with a dremel while the head is still attached. i don't think that would be recommended, especially with my less than zero training in shaving/carving/boring/ect.
if i do have to take the head off it will only be to do a take the lost part out and new head gasket and put it back together. if i did lose a part messing up i would wait till i got the rest of the job done to see how much i lost before removing the head. it may be easier to take the head off. But who cares about what's easy. it doesn't mean it's right now that it's what/how i want to do it.

 

[Diamondrev]

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[bullettdsm]

Ok, Dave.............

MB

Edit; wait, wait, now that I viewed the video , I see what you are showing. Good deal for the OP to see what's involved and the parts etc so they get a taste of what they are doing.